Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Ezra you were right with everything you said except "and the resurrection of the church was even before that". You know as well as most here there is no proof of a pre-trib rapture in the Bible.

Ah but there is proof of a pre-trib rapture Enoch.

Marilyn.

[Last Daze]

11 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Ezra you were right with everything you said except "and the resurrection of the church was even before that". You know as well as most here there is no proof of a pre-trib rapture in the Bible.

The same thing that passes as "proof" for a pretribber is different for what passes as "proof" for a posttribber.

• Pretribbers tend to be more emotional and subjective in their approach deferring to what they "feel" is right as proof.
• Posttribbers tend to be more logical and objective relying strictly on intelligence for their proof.

Consequently, the two camps will continue to talk past each other in an argument which ultimately seems to produce strife.  Emotion and logic are characteristics of the natural man.  They do not produce godliness.

Instead, we should focus on the words of Jesus, to not be weighed down with the cares of this world, but rather be alert.  The discernment that comes from walking in the Truth will give us oil to keep shining in an ever-darkening world.  While emotion and logic have their place, only obedience will prepare us for His return.  All believers have the same Spirit and are equally capable of being doers of the word.  The natural man produces worldly wisdom.  Acting on Jesus' words produces godly wisdom.

[Guest]

Does a groom drag his bride through bloody streets before the wedding feast?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

The same thing that passes as "proof" for a pretribber is different for what passes as "proof" for a posttribber.

• Pretribbers tend to be more emotional and subjective in their approach deferring to what they "feel" is right as proof.
• Posttribbers tend to be more logical and objective relying strictly on intelligence for their proof.

Consequently, the two camps will continue to talk past each other in an argument which ultimately seems to produce strife.  Emotion and logic are characteristics of the natural man.  They do not produce godliness.

Instead, we should focus on the words of Jesus, to not be weighed down with the cares of this world, but rather be alert.  The discernment that comes from walking in the Truth will give us oil to keep shining in an ever-darkening world.  While emotion and logic have their place, only obedience will prepare us for His return.  All believers have the same Spirit and are equally capable of being doers of the word.  The natural man produces worldly wisdom.  Acting on Jesus' words produces godly wisdom.

Does Paul show a difference in scripture between the church and Isreal?

Your last two sentences are indeed true. I am implored to say them back to you!

 

[Salty]

14 hours ago, Ezra said:

It has been a common misunderstanding that everyone (saved and unsaved) is raised on the same day.  A study of Revelation 20 reveals that that is is a mistake. Everything said in the Gospel of John must be reconciled with the rest of Scripture. In Scripture "day" can mean a 24-hour day or a period of many days ("the Day of the Lord"), or even years.

Actually, that "last day" stretches over at least 1,000 years. Compare Revelation 20:4 and 20:5, which is connected to Rev 20:11.  The resurrection of the Tribulation saints is separated from that of the unsaved dead by 1,000 years, and the resurrection of the Church was even before that (Rev 7). 

I don't see that idea aligning with Scripture at all. I don't see the "first resurrection" happening after the 1,000 years reign of Christ with His elect.

Clearly the resurrection that happened at the time of Christ's crucifixion was a unique event just for the time of Christ's death on the cross. Since then, there has been no resurrection of the dead, and nor is one written of in Revelation except at the end of this world, and that is the meaning of "last day" in those passages I quoted. We don't have play word fallacies with that phrase, because we know it is pointing to the "first resurrection" of Rev.20, and not to any other resurrection event.

Nor do we have to wonder when the resurrection is, because Jesus in John 5:28-29 made the time plain, as He also did in Revelation, and as Paul also did in 1 Cor.15.

So if folks have to make something up just to keep a doctrine, that should be a huge indicator that doctrine is not Biblical.

 

[Salty]

17 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

They do not even understand the "ALL ISRAEL" will be saved scriptures. They think it means all the Church will be saved, but in the end it means that ALL Israel will be saved after the Gentiles time is fulfilled.

All Israel being Saved doesn't mean all people of Israel will be saved, it means Israel as a Nation turns back to God. There are now Messianic Jews, always have been some here an there, most who live in Israel and turn to Chris Jesus are castigated by their families, they are despised and hated. Jews do not hate Christians per se, they hate other Jews who become Christians. This is what Paul meant by "All Israel" will be saved. He is speaking about that day that the nation of Israel is turned back unto God. Just as Daniels 70th Week Decree prophesies will happen, just as Zechariah 12:10 prophesies will happen, just as Paul promises will happen, just as many prophets prophesied will happen. 

No Law can justify any man/men anywhere. The very reason Israel was considered unjust is because they turned to false gods and didn't keep the Law, which no one can. Israel then refused to accept the Lamb of God, the express image of God, one Jesus Christ, their promised Salvation or coming "SEED". Yeshua (Jesus) means Salvation. So when Paul says all Israel will be saved he is in NO WAY saying that everyone in the "Church" is going to be saved. He is saying Israel as a nation is going to one day turn back unto God, just as Malachi 4:5-6 promises, and in the very passage in which he speaks about this. 

Romans 11 starts off with Paul asking the question has Israel been lost, Paul says God forbid, God has kept 7000 men ( I think this represents the fullness of Israel repenting at some point, not 7000 men) who have not bowed the knee to Baal. He then says there is a Remnant according to grace, and that it can never be of works, if so it could not be Grace. Then Paul says God has given Israel the spirit of slumber even unto this Day.....Now 2000 years later even unto this day also. Paul then tells them why Israel was cast aside, it answers everything we need to understand the whereto/wherefore and all the WHYS !!

KEY BELOW.............That solves the question 

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Israel and the Gentiles are Two different entities by Paul's own Words)

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

So what does this passage mean/imply ? That Israel (branches) was broken off because of their UNBELIEF and will be Grafted back in when they BELIEVE AGAIN !! BOOM. So when does Israel believe again ? When the Fullness of the Gentiles is come in, PLAIN AS DAY !! And then what happens ? All Israel, or Israel as a Nation repents as a Nation and turns back unto God/Messiah, just as Zechariah 12:10 prophesies. 

It is true, all of us are Gods children, in Christ Jesus, BUT for anyone to say that Paul when he said that there is neither Jew nor Greek was referring to the nation of Israel as having no place in future prophecy and is only the "Church" is people ignoring Paul's very words right here in this very passage. He says WHEN THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN ! This shows there will be TWO ENTITIES !! All Israel will be Saved, when the Time of the Gentiles is come in.

So Israel is a separate entity from the Gentile nations. We as individuals are all the same, children of Faith/Belief on/in a God who justifies us BY FAITH, but Israel and the Gentile Nations have separate callings, Israel brought forth the Messiah, the Gentile Nations brought forth the Gospel of the Messiah to the World, the Church will be Raptured to Heaven when the Gentiles time has been Fulfilled, then all Israel will be Saved, as a NATION, not all Jews will be saved, that can only happen via Jesus Christs blood. But a large majority of Israel will turn to God, and Israel as a Nation turns back to God. Not ALL ISRAEL Turned from God, there were still Godly men and prophets like Daniel who kept Gods commandments and they were Holy men before God, but ALL ISRAEL turned from God, as a NATION..........And likewise all Israel will turn back unto God in like manner. 

Thus ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED.........When they believe in God again as a Nation. This proves the Gentiles and Israel are separate entities, and is the number one Mistake all post-tribbers make. When the Fullness of the Gentiles is come, they/we will be Raptured (I hope people don't think we will just lose our power of prayer and Israel will take over, THAT'S SILLY). and then All Osrael will come to God as a Nation. 

 

I well understand about unbelieving Israel being saved when Jesus comes, which is when the fullness of the Gentiles will be. But that has NOTHING to do with trying to prove the Pre-trib Rapture theory from John Darby is a doctrine in The Bible, as no such idea can be found.

About unbelieving Israel on that day of Christ, Zechariah 12 gives us more info, as did Jesus in Luke 23 about them. They will appear in shame and wish for the mountains and hills to fall upon them, because at that moment it will be revealed to them how they rejected their Savior and worked against Him during this world. I'd say that's mostly for the most hardliner Jewish activists against Christ today.

Luke 23:26-31
26 And as they led Him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.

27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.

28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us.'

31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?
KJV

 

 

[Salty]

15 hours ago, Ezra said:

It has been a common misunderstanding that everyone (saved and unsaved) is raised on the same day.  A study of Revelation 20 reveals that that is is a mistake. Everything said in the Gospel of John must be reconciled with the rest of Scripture. In Scripture "day" can mean a 24-hour day or a period of many days ("the Day of the Lord"), or even years.

Actually, that "last day" stretches over at least 1,000 years. Compare Revelation 20:4 and 20:5, which is connected to Rev 20:11.  The resurrection of the Tribulation saints is separated from that of the unsaved dead by 1,000 years, and the resurrection of the Church was even before that (Rev 7). 

Per John 5:28-29, BOTH the resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation happen on the day of Jesus' 2nd coming. And that is Jesus speaking. I trust His Word over yours and your common mistake idea you got from men's doctrines that work against Christ.

 

[Revelation Man]

15 hours ago, Ezra said:

It has been a common misunderstanding that everyone (saved and unsaved) is raised on the same day.  A study of Revelation 20 reveals that that is is a mistake. Everything said in the Gospel of John must be reconciled with the rest of Scripture. In Scripture "day" can mean a 24-hour day or a period of many days ("the Day of the Lord"), or even years.

Actually, that "last day" stretches over at least 1,000 years. Compare Revelation 20:4 and 20:5, which is connected to Rev 20:11.  The resurrection of the Tribulation saints is separated from that of the unsaved dead by 1,000 years, and the resurrection of the Church was even before that (Rev 7). 

Exactly, just like YOM in Genesis one means a "Period of Time", and the first Day was like 9.2 Billion years..........SMILE

[Revelation Man]

15 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Ezra you were right with everything you said except "and the resurrection of the church was even before that". You know as well as most here there is no proof of a pre-trib rapture in the Bible.

I provided the proof in my first reply to this thread, about Revelation 19, the one you guys stayed away from discussing because it has you cornered. there is zero doubt about there Church being Raptured to Heaven before the Day of the Lord (Gods Period of Wrath). You just have to read the scriptures God has give us.

 

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The same thing that passes as "proof" for a pretribber is different for what passes as "proof" for a posttribber.

• Pretribbers tend to be more emotional and subjective in their approach deferring to what they "feel" is right as proof.
• Posttribbers tend to be more logical and objective relying strictly on intelligence for their proof.

Consequently, the two camps will continue to talk past each other in an argument which ultimately seems to produce strife.  Emotion and logic are characteristics of the natural man.  They do not produce godliness.

Instead, we should focus on the words of Jesus, to not be weighed down with the cares of this world, but rather be alert.  The discernment that comes from walking in the Truth will give us oil to keep shining in an ever-darkening world.  While emotion and logic have their place, only obedience will prepare us for His return.  All believers have the same Spirit and are equally capable of being doers of the word.  The natural man produces worldly wisdom.  Acting on Jesus' words produces godly wisdom.

There is no proof of a post trib rapture because it doesn't exist. There is only a lot of misconceptions by post tribbers. 

[Salty]

2 hours ago, Blueyedjewel said:

Does a groom drag his bride through bloody streets before the wedding feast?

No, which is why Jesus is coming to marry Jerusalem, and not the "children of the bridechamber":

Matt 9:15
15 And Jesus said unto them, "Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast."
KJV