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2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Good points Montana Marv.

By omission the church is not mentioned after Revelation 3:, and the twenty-four elders with crowns show up, and they toss their crowns to Jesus's feet as you stated. The Bible is replete with symbolic numbers.

One: Unity. Two: Union, division, witnessing, Three: Resurrection, Divine completeness and perfection. So on and so forth.

Twenty-four: Is the number for 'the priesthood'. We shall be kings and priests with the Lord Jesus Christ. This number is representative of the raptured church. And the word "rapture" (from the Greek harpazo - to seize), is in the Bible, the Latin Bible.

Since this is after the Rapture, it could mean a Fullness of the Saints of God, or it could be the Twelve Disciples and the Twelve Saints of old representing the Twelve Tribes of Israel. 12 is a number of Fullness also, and the 144,000 is 12,000 x 12,000 I have often thought this represents all Israel being saved. Elijah turns them back unto God/Messiah Jesus and they are seen as pure as virgins. FINALLY. 

That last bit is just a thought process I am going through. I do not make up my mind on these things until the Holy Spirit gives me the go ahead, or the unction comes forth. 

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11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You do not understand because Elijah will turn Israel back unto God before the Day of the Lord comes, or Gods wrath which starts at the opening of the Seals and lasts through the Seventh Vial, if your understanding was true, then Israel would not be saved until Jesus came back. That is just not what the bible teaches. Again, no matter how many time you say or repeat this bogus claim, it is not going to become "TRUTH", The Rapture is spoken about by Paul, he clearly speaks of the Harpazo, snatching away, which is what Rapio in the Latin Vulgate means and is what Catching Away in the KJV means, Raptured away. You can repeat it all you want, but Harpazo, Rapio and Rapture all means to be snatched away or caught up.  You keep repeating that though, even though it will not come true. 

The Luke 23 Scripture is Jesus' words, not mine. Not all the unbelieving Jews will convert during this world, and thus will appear in shame when Jesus comes, like He showed in Luke 23; don't weep for Him, but "weep for yourselves and your children" He said.

 

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12 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I provided the proof in my first reply to this thread, about Revelation 19, the one you guys stayed away from discussing because it has you cornered. there is zero doubt about there Church being Raptured to Heaven before the Day of the Lord (Gods Period of Wrath). You just have to read the scriptures God has give us.

 

There is no proof of a post trib rapture because it doesn't exist. There is only a lot of misconceptions by post tribbers. 

Revelation 19 is about Jesus coming 'with'... the "asleep" saints and His angels. That is day of the Lord timing when the following events occur per 1 Thess.4:

1. the "asleep" saints are resurrected, and Jesus descends to this earth bringing those saints and His angels with Him.

2. the saints still alive on earth are changed to the spiritual body at the twinkling of an eye, and then are seized to Jesus and His alseep saints with ALL going to Jerusalem on earth.

There is NO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE in any of that event.

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5 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Good points Montana Marv.

By omission the church is not mentioned after Revelation 3:, and the twenty-four elders with crowns show up, and they toss their crowns to Jesus's feet as you stated. The Bible is replete with symbolic numbers.

One: Unity. Two: Union, division, witnessing, Three: Resurrection, Divine completeness and perfection. So on and so forth.

Twenty-four: Is the number for 'the priesthood'. We shall be kings and priests with the Lord Jesus Christ. This number is representative of the raptured church. And the word "rapture" (from the Greek harpazo - to seize), is in the Bible, the Latin Bible.


The view of the 24 elders is a future forward look, as they sing the new song, which of course ONLY occurs at the end of this world with Jesus' second coming, standing upon Mt. Zion (Sion) per Rev.14.

I don't know why... some like to cloud this matter, the Scripture is clear enough. The rewards are not handed out until Jesus returns and takes possession of all the kingdoms of this world (Rev.11, 7th trumpet forward).

 

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As for the idea of the Church not being mentioned after Revelation chapter 3, that is another one of the lies from the false Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men.

Rev 13:7-8
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV

You brethren who love God's Word more than doctrines of men like the false Pre-trib Rapture theory, do you see that bold phrase there in verse 8? That is especially about Christ's ELECT servants who were chosen from the foundation of the world. That is... Christ's Church! They are still... on earth there!

What? Does the devil have "saints"? Who could that mean then? Hmm... let's see, believers of Buddhism aren't called saints, Muslims aren't called saints, unbelieving Jews aren't called saints, Hindus aren't called saints? Ah! I know! It must be CHRISTIANS, because they ARE called saints!

And since when... are saints NOT about Christ's Church?!@!?

So brethren, it's up to you who listen to, the simplicity that is in God's Holy Writ, or men's doctrines devised by charlatans who are really more interested in your money than protecting the flock, and who will run when the wolves come after the sheep (John 10). Hirelings they are, and they will have their reward when our Lord Jesus comes!

 

Edited by Salty
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The below Scripture is about today, which I will show how, and it reveals how God feels about the pre-trib rapture theory of flying away to escape:

Ezek 13:1-9
13:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;

3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!

4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.

5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.

6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, "The LORD saith": and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.

7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, "The LORD saith it"; albeit I have not spoken?

8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.

9 And Mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of My people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
KJV

That "day of the Lord" is an event set for the very end of this world on the last day, the day of Jesus' 2nd coming. God said there the religious leaders of the "house of Israel" have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for them so that they can do what? So that they can STAND in battle in the day of the Lord.

The majority of you likely have little clue as to who and where the "house of Israel" exists in the last days leading up to this "day of this Lord" event. It's because most Churches today don't cover Bible history in-depth anymore.

God split old Israel in Solomon's day into 2 separate kingdoms and thus 2 separate 'houses'. The ten tribes of Israel made up the northern kingdom of the "house of Israel" (these being spoken of here in Ezekiel 13). The ten tribes God scattered among the Gentiles in Solomon's days. They never returned as the majority of the people of Israel. At the same time of the split of Israel, the southern kingdom was the "house of Judah" in the southern lands, at Jerusalem/Judea. They remained in the land when the ten tribes were removed and scattered. Then about 120 years, the king of Babylon took those of the house of Judah captive to Babylon for 70 years, which only a small remnant of them returned to Jerusalem rebuild the city and 2nd temple prior to Jesus' 1st coming. These became known as the Jews. The majority of the tribes, the ten tribes, remained scattered among the Gentiles.

Genesis 35 and 48 contain prophecy that Jacob was to become "a company of nations", and Ephraim, who would become the head tribe over the ten tribes (1 Kings 11 & 12), was to become "a multitude of nations". These nations are the western Christian nations of history. That is where the majority of the people of Israel were scattered to, forming the old European nations.

This Ezekiel 13 chapter is specifically to the ten tribed "house of Israel" in the last days. If you have not realized this yet, I'll say it out load. There are TWO SEPARATE HOUSES OF ISRAEL in God's Word, the "house of Israel" (non-Jews) and the "house of Judah" (the Jews, from their head tribe Judah). God made Ezekiel specifically a prophet to the "house of Israel" (ten tribes, the "multitude of nations" under Ephraim). See also Ezekiel 3 about God having made Ezekiel a prophet to the house of Israel.

If you don't understand the above, you will not understand how this prophecy is about events at the very end of this world.

Ezek 13:17-23
17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

God uses the "daughters of thy people" to show these religious leaders were like women prophetesses. The idea of their sewing pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head people of all age groups, is in comparison to the female pagan prophetess who would lean upon a cushion or pillow with the victim having a veil over their head to symbolize some magical transforming state which would supposedly reveal secrets of the next world, etc.

In short, these religious leaders, foxes among the house of Israel God called them, were really putting on a big mystical show to fool God's people. Are we getting closer to what's been going on in many of the Pre-trib Rapture Churches today, with people writhing in the floor uncontrollably making animal noises, shaking uncontrollably, speaking gibberish, and running and jumping up and down the asiles, etc.? And they call those works of The Holy Spirit?

No, our Heavenly Father is right on with this Message here in Ezek.13 of what's going on in many Churches today.

And just who... does the saving of souls? Is it the preacher? NO! It is GOD. He does the saving.

 

19 And will ye pollute Me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?

Man, now here's a big thing going on today in many of the Pre-trib Rapture Churches. Why can't we all have a huge mansion, lots of cars, even a private jet, like Joel Osteen does? What will happen if we go up in a tower and threaten to not come down until we receive $8 million dollars, like Oral Roberts did many years ago? If their preachers are talking about money most of the time, what do you think is on their minds most of the time? Yes, that's right, money! That is what the "handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread" represents here in this verse. What's really bad is, they offer eternal life to save the souls that should not live, while slaying the souls that should not die, all by their lies!

 

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

Because of this, God is against their pillows they use to hunt the souls to make them... FLY!

Make them do what??? Make them fly.

That is exactly what the Pre-trib Rapture doctors are doing today in some churches, hunting souls to make them fly... away! Oh, fly away... you've heard the Gospel song.

God said He is going to tear them out of those false prophet's arms.

 

21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
KJV

 

 

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On 10/22/2016 at 1:04 PM, Revelation Man said:

This is for those who have put on Jesus Christs righteousness after the Rapture. You guys just can not seem to fathom that people will still get saved after the Rapture, its like a brick wall blinds you from this important truth and you keep banging your head against this wall.

Herein lies your problem, you do not understand the difference between the Rapture and the Day of the Lord and that is not Gods fault. 

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Paul and Peter are speaking about the Day of Gods Wrath coming upon an unexpected world. Not the Rapture of the Church per se.

:sherlock:

Beloved The Rapture Is All About Israel

Then I will return to my lair until they have borne their guilt and seek my face-- in their misery they will earnestly seek me." Hosea 5:15 (New International Version)

And Not About The

If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second covenant to replace it. 8But when God found fault with the people, he said:

“The day is coming, says the Lord,

when I will make a new covenant

with the people of Israel and Judah. Hebrews 8:7

Nations

This covenant will not be like the one

I made with their ancestors

when I took them by the hand

and led them out of the land of Egypt.

They did not remain faithful to my covenant,

so I turned my back on them, says the Lord.

But this is the new covenant I will make

with the people of Israel on that day, says the Lord:

I will put my laws in their minds,

and I will write them on their hearts.

I will be their God,

and they will be my people.

And they will not need to teach their neighbors,

nor will they need to teach their relatives,

saying, ‘You should know the Lord.’

For everyone, from the least to the greatest,

will know me already. Hebrews 8:9-11

IMO

And I will forgive their wickedness,

and I will never again remember their sins.”

When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear. Hebrews 8:12-13 

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12 hours ago, Salty said:

The Luke 23 Scripture is Jesus' words, not mine. Not all the unbelieving Jews will convert during this world, and thus will appear in shame when Jesus comes, like He showed in Luke 23; don't weep for Him, but "weep for yourselves and your children" He said.

 

Your problem seems to be if Scriptures sound alike anywhere in the Bible, you just assume it has to be a conjoined prophecy or event. The scriptures in Revelation which is during the Seals has nothing to do with Luke 23, Jesus is telling those women, these same men that kill me, will be driven out of this land in a few years or in like 30 years. And sure enough because Israel kept rising up against Roman Rule, they quashed them, tore down their Temple and dispersed them the world over, in time. Luke 23 and Revelation chapter 6 are not the same EVENT !! Its Just not.

I wrote a post explaining the "All Israel" will be saved, it doesn't mean that every Jew will be saved and except Christ, it means that the Nation of Israel as a Whole finally except Jesus as their Messiah. If only 95 percent of the Jews accept Jesus as the Messiah, all ISRAEL (as a NATION) have finally turned to God as a PEOPLES. Just like when Israel fell out of favor and was punished, you still had men of God that served God, yet Israel was punished, likewise, not EVERY JEW has to accept Christ Jesus as the Messiah for Israel to turn back to God as a Nation. When a LARGE Portion turn back unto God and accept Jesus (Zechariah 12:10) then ALL ISRAEL will be Saved. And God will start fighting her battles again, protecting her in the wilderness, nourishing her in the wilderness etc. etc. etc. 

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5 hours ago, Salty said:

Revelation 19 is about Jesus coming 'with'... the "asleep" saints and His angels. That is day of the Lord timing when the following events occur per 1 Thess.4:

1. the "asleep" saints are resurrected, and Jesus descends to this earth bringing those saints and His angels with Him.

2. the saints still alive on earth are changed to the spiritual body at the twinkling of an eye, and then are seized to Jesus and His alseep saints with ALL going to Jerusalem on earth.

There is NO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE in any of that event.

No it isn't, Jesus marries the Church, ALL OF THE CHURCH that was ready at his SHOUT....Not some of the Church, you see what lengths you guys have to go to to make it work out ? The whole Church will not Marry the Lamb in Heaven, its only the Saints who slept who are in Heaven, even thou 1 Corinthians chapter 15 expressly tells us that those ALIVE and Remaining change into incorruptible bodies and go to Heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

This passage clearly states the Dead in Christ (those asleep) and those Christians alive will be Raptured at the same time. Your biggest problem is just like the Luke 23 passage, you guys get hung up on the "LAST TRUMP" and allow it to confuse and deceive you. The Last Trump is in Reference to what calls forth the Feast of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacle every year for Israel, it is the Feast of Trumpets. At the last Trump, we the Church (of Pentecost as in the Feast of Pentecost) will be called Home, and it will be Israels time of Atonement (Jacobs Trouble will bring Israel to Repentance) then the Last Feast will be when Israel Tabernacles with God (Dwells with God). 

This is the whole Goal of Daniels 70th Week Decree, to bring Israel back unto God before the 70th Week expires.

In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.

1. Finish the transgression ( Before the 70th Week passes Israel has to finish the Revolt against God )
2. Make and end of sins ( Only Jesus can put an end to Daily Sins so Israel Repents, then Jesus Rules and Israel Dwell with God )
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity ( Israel has to ATONE for their Sins by accepting Jesus as the Messiah )
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness ( Only Jesus can do this )
5. To seal up vision and prophecy ( All prophecies must be Fulfilled by the time this 70th Week ends )
6. Anoint the most Holy ( Jesus Christ will be Anointed King of Kings and Lord of Lords )

These taking of single words or passages like "The Last Trump" and running with them like they are a Trump of Revelation, when Revelation had never been Written, and this Trump in 1 Corinthians 15 calls Gods people Home whereas the other Trump brings forth Wrath, is just bonkers to me, it leads to confusion.

 

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5 hours ago, Salty said:

As for the idea of the Church not being mentioned after Revelation chapter 3, that is another one of the lies from the false Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men.

Rev 13:7-8
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV

Again, a classic misunderstanding, and you can explain to post tribbers till you are blue in the face, and one week later they will cite the very same, tired old passage, that is irrelevant.  We UNDERSTAND there will be people in the Tribulation that give their Lives to Jesus Christ, why do you guys PRETEND we haven't explained this 40 million times ? Of course after the Rapture their will be many converts, we see that God is still sending preachers of the Gospel forth to preach, we understand that 5 of the Virgins were FOOLISH and did not have enough oil (Holy Spirit) to make it to the Marriage of the Lamb. These are the SAINTS who are overcome by Satan. This is elementary. So PEOPLE BECOME CHRISTIANS, after the Rapture (I am sure if you are left behind as 100's of millions are taken, you will repent, as would I and become a true Christian, If I was left behind, I would understand, I had sin in my life somewhere that needed dealing with !! ) and THOSE ARE THE Saints that Satan makes war with and Beheads, because when he can not Get at Israel (Rev. 12) he is angry and turns towards the Christians or Remnant (Small part that is Left) of the SEED of the Woman (Israel). 

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