Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Revelation Man]

13 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Revelation Man.

Please read it again.

His wife (The City of God) in heaven has made herself ready (The City of God is ready to come down).

The City of God is arrayed in fine linen, clean and white (righteousness)

The fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.

So the City  is decked with the righteousness of the saints, showing that that the City is the bride, and her adornments are the white robes the saints are wearing.

Do you see the difference?

 

Look here also;

John 3:29   He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

The saints are the "friends" of the bridegroom.  They are the "invited guests", not the bride.

 

The Saints are the Bride. That is the very reason Jesus tells us the parable about the Virgins and the Bridegroom.  GO READ THIS, Maybe it will register. 

THE JEWISH WEDDING PATTERN - LUKE 8:10 

 

Not being snide, I just do not get why people can not see the obvious. I think people are stuck in their own beliefs. I went over 30 years without a firm belief in the Rapture or Babylon, because I do not except men's opinions, only when the Holy Spirit brings forth his unction do I accept things. Too many people, imho, get ideas from other men and refuse to bend to the will of the Holy Spirit. I am not like that. 7 or 8 months ago I wrote about Babylon the Great, did a blog on it, I called Rome Babylon the Great. But when I understood a few months ago just what Babylon the Great is and what the Harlot is, I had no problem saying my former understanding was wrong, most seem to have to much pride to change their views. 

 

My understanding is one thing, when the Holy Spirit tells me something, a pack of wild dogs couldn't get me to change. 

 

I know the difference between my thoughts and the Holy Spirits Revelation. 

[Salty]

On 10/26/2016 at 7:38 PM, Revelation Man said:

No it is like saying they were not ready when the Bridegroom came and they were LOCKED OUT Matthew 25:10 While they went away to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.

If you or I miss the Rapture we have sin in our lives, that is called an ILLUSTRATION, that doesn't say we will miss the Rapture, so your point is moot. The fact is after the Rapture there will be men and women who become Saints, they will have to endure until the end, it isn't God's fault they weren't ready when he sent the Bridegroom for the Bride.  The Saints mentioned in Rev. 13 can ONLY BE Saints who were saved after the Rapture. Paul and Peters words have nothing to do with Rev. 13.

The Bridegroom (Jesus) isn't coming until the final 7th Trumpet, and the final 7th Vial, which is when the "day of the Lord" happens "as a thief in the night'. You do remember our Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief", don't you? There is no gathering to Christ before that.

So Pre-tribs' theory that the Scripture evidence of saints still on earth during tribulation is a total and complete fabrication that cannot be Biblically supported.

Our Lord Jesus is looking for REAL MEN and WOMEN of His many-membered Body to be prepared to make a STAND in the "evil day" against Satan's servants, and to give a Testimony against them by The Holy Spirit. That will be one of the duties during the tribulation for Christ's elect, while the majority of the Church will seek to 'fly away' to heaven when no such thing is going to happen prior to the trib.

I look for the Pre-trib Rapture preachers to change their story when the pseudo-Christ arrives in Jerusalem doing great signs and wonders like our Lord Jesus did at His 1st coming. I look for them to tell the deceived pre-trib rapture believers that that false one is Jesus, and to go flee to him! (i.e., Paul's warning about the "another Jesus" in 2 Cor.11) Problem is, that won't be our Lord Jesus.

I mean, deceived Christian brethren can even go to Jerusalem today where the orthodox unbelieving Jews are preparing... to build another temple and join in with giving them DONATIONS! You can even buy Jewish souvenirs involving the coming re-instituted old covenant worship in Jerusalem!

 

[Salty]

13 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Now how does this great multitude, who obviously did not receive the love of the truth since they missed the rapture, shrug off the deception of those days and the strong delusion and attain a martyr's faith in such a relatively short period of time?  The whole notion of a "great revival" has zero scriptural support, in fact the opposite is true.

Very true, by the time the great tribulation begins, no one will be a fence-rider unable to make up their mind.

God's Word specifically shows us that during the tribulation when the pseudo-Christ/Antichrist/the dragon, shows up worker miracles on earth, he will deceive ALL whose names are NOT written in the book of life from the foundation of the world:

Rev 13:6-8
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV

This is a very, very important point, because it means only Christ's elect believers will refuse to bow to the coming pseudo-Christ. That means no conversion hopping when he gets here. All will already be of one group or the other. Even the supreme atheists are going to convert to the coming pseudo-Christ in that time.

 

[Sister]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Not being snide, I just do not get why people can not see the obvious.

 

Revelation Man

If you want to bring forth your point of view, you have to be patient with others.  What seems obvious to you is the popular teaching amongst the churches here today. They all say we are the bride of Christ. You are only repeating the doctrines that are already laid out, not me.  You see me as being contrary to every thing, or deceived, that's fine,.... in your opinion I must belong to some church, or have been taught by them.  You are wrong.

What if I was to tell you that God is very angry with the churches today?  Would you believe me?  He said their foundations are made with untempered mortar.  Their foundation is not solid, not built on truth.  We have to make sure our foundations are built on truth.  One way to test this is to look at the scriptures provided for us and put it all together.  Strangers have entered God's sanctuary.  The uncircumsized of heart have taken over.  And God sees inside the heart.  Babylon has set a trap.  She has kept the flock from finding all the treasures.  She has provided many so called Ministers of God to lure many away, keeping them in captivity thinking they are free, feeding the flcok with fairy floss and all things sweet, leaving them totally unprepared for what is to come.

The scriptures are written in black and white and cannot be changed to suit.  If the angel says "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife", and then he shows the Holy City coming down, full of God's glory, then that's the bride...simple. What don't you understand?  It's written right there in front of you and you still reject it?  Are you really interested in the Word of God?  Does this not hold proof for you? You see it as "my interpretation".  It's not my interpretation, it's the angel's.

  Revelation 21:9   And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

  Revelation 21:10   And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
 

 

 

Quote

I think people are stuck in their own beliefs. I went over 30 years without a firm belief in the Rapture or Babylon, because I do not except men's opinions, only when the Holy Spirit brings forth his unction do I accept things. Too many people, imho, get ideas from other men and refuse to bend to the will of the Holy Spirit. I am not like that. 7 or 8 months ago I wrote about Babylon the Great, did a blog on it, I called Rome Babylon the Great. But when I understood a few months ago just what Babylon the Great is and what the Harlot was, I had no problem saying be former understanding was wrong, most seem to have to much pride to change their views. 

Well that's the way it should go.  Be corrected when in error.  We have all gone through that.  You are speaking of pride now not even realising you still hold on to it, because it's your way or the highway.  I am showing you something in scripture, and I didn't write the scriptures.  I hope you don't get too angry, and yes I want to stir you up so you can go back and really look at it.  Sorry for changing the subject of this thread, but I am only addressing something you stated in one of your replies.  I hope you can just slow down a little and be more patient with me, because not only you, but I also love the truth.

[Revelation Man]

9 hours ago, Salty said:

The Bridegroom (Jesus) isn't coming until the final 7th Trumpet, and the final 7th Vial, which is when the "day of the Lord" happens "as a thief in the night'. You do remember our Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief", don't you? There is no gathering to Christ before that.

 

The 7th Trumpet !!! It is just not a fact.....You have no clue here what Paul is speaking of. Last Trump meaning is below.

I don't think the Rapture is necessarily an escape or a reward for us Christians, or "The Church". I think it is a very deep, thought out plan by God to graft Israel back into the family of God.

Israel brought forth baby Jesus (Rev. 12) the Dragon tried to kill the Baby via King Herod and failed. Th Man Child ascended to the Right hand of the Father where he sits now making intercession for us his Church. 

Israel was the vehicle God used to bring Salvation to a dying, Godless world, but Israel turned from God and Daniels 70 Week Decree came forth. Israel was to cut off the Messiah after the 69th week, then the Time of the Gentiles would be front and center, God commissioned the Gentiles to take the Gospel unto ends of the world. Jesus said that when this came to pass, the time of the Gentiles would be fulfilled. 

That means the Church is Raptured, at the "last trump" and Israel 70th Week starts or her last week of punishment/Judgment, which is designed to bring her to repentance/atonement. God has turned His back to Israel for 2000-2500 years because of her backsliding ways. Thus the Seventy Sevens God decreed against Israel !!

Jesus fulfilled the three Spring Feast of the Passover, Unleavened Bread and the First-fruits when he died. THEN.....The Feast of Pentecost was the Church getting the Holy Spirit for 2000 years..........Pentecost means Harvest, we are Harvesting souls for Jesus the Sower, we are his arms and legs so to speak. Notice the Feast of PENTECOST is all by itself !! (Church Age)

The three Fall Feasts are the Feast of Trumpets, the Feast of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacle. The Feast of Trumpets basically never did anything, but announce that Pentecost was over and that the other two Feasts were nigh at hand !!

So when the "LAST TRUMP" Blows, Pentecost is OVER !!! Get it ? The Church age is OVER, we are Raptured to Heaven, and the Feast of Atonement is AT HAND. What does Israel have to do before the 70th Week Decree is over ? It has to ATONE....BOOM, getting deep. Once Israel Atones for her sin then what does she do ? Well Jesus comes back, and Israel TABERNACLES=( To Dwell with God ) with God or Dwells with God/Jesus. ( All 7 Feasts will have concluded )

It is obvious, God leaves us these deep clues, we just have to study and get these clues revealed to us by God. CHECK OUT WHAT ISRAEL MUST DO BEFORE THE 70TH WEEK DECREE IS OVER.

In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.

1. Finish the transgression ( Israels Revolt against God must CEASE )
2. Make and end of sins ( Only Jesus cam bring an end to Daily Sins )
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity ( ATONEMENT !! They have to Accept Jesus )
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness ( Again, only Jesus can do this )
5. To seal up vision and prophecy ( All Prophecy must be Fulfilled )
6. Anoint the most Holy ( Jesus has to be Anointed Kink of Kings and Lords of Lords as Israels true Savior/Messiah. )

God has a plan, Israel is brought back to God by Elijah before the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord (Malachi 4:5-6). Israel seeing 100's of millions of Christians dying all at the same time, UNDERSTANDS what is going on. We are leaving our corruptible bodies and changing in the Twinkling of an eye. Then Elijah, one of the Two-Witnesses turns Israel back unto God before the Abomination of Desolation happens. 

God has a detailed plan, Amen.

The Last Trump which Calls the Church Home will be the LAST TRUMP OF THE CHURCH AGE.............

 

[Last Daze]

12 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You are referencing something that happens way before the Second Coming, all because you do not understand when the Rapture is.

Like I said, you have everything backwards, these are the Saints that were Raptured.

As usual, you're right and I'm wrong . . . unless I have that backwards too which is a distinct possibility. 

You're certainly entitled to believe whatever you wish for whatever reason seems good to you.  Just be careful that you don't exalt your version of eschatology above what really matters.

[Salty]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The 7th Trumpet !!! It is just not a fact.....You have no clue here what Paul is speaking of. Last Trump meaning is below.

I don't think the Rapture is necessarily an escape or a reward for us Christians, or "The Church". I think it is a very deep, thought out plan by God to graft Israel back into the family of God.
....

Most of your reply was just a regurgitation of Pre-trib Rapture theory doctrines from men, and not Biblically based doctrine.

The meaning of Paul's "last trump" means the 'fartherest one out', which means the final one. And that the trump of 1 Thess.4, and the same 7th trumpet of Rev.11. It shows that you have not really studied the Revelation 9 thru 11 chapters very thoroughly.

Our Lord Jesus tied 3 Woe periods to the last 3 trumpets. The 1st Woe period begins with the locusts in Rev.9. The 2nd Woe period begins with the four angels at the river Euphrates being loosed at Rev.9:12 and that period continues all the way to Rev.11:14 when the final 3rd Woe occurs with the final 7th Trumpet.

And then, the next event we are shown is this...

Rev 11:15-19
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
KJV

Rev.11:15 is very easy to understand that the trib is OVER at that point, and Jesus has taken reign over all the earth like Zechariah 14 shows, so that 7th Trumpet is... Paul's "last trump" because that is when Paul showed in 1 Cor.15 that the resurrection happens, and those of us still alive on earth are changed at the twinkling of an eye to our spiritual bodies.

 

Edited October 28, 2016 by Salty

[Ezra]

4 hours ago, Salty said:

The meaning of Paul's "last trump" means the 'fartherest one out', which means the final one. And that the trump of 1 Thess.4, and the same 7th trumpet of Rev.11.

How can a trumpet announcing the severest expression of God's wrath (7th trumpet) have any relation whatsoever to a "last trumpet" calling the saints home (a proclamation of deliverance, salvation,  transformation, perfection, resurrection, glorification)?  

That in itself is so ludicrous, that one has to wonder where people come up with these untenable interpretations. 

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, Ezra said:

How can a trumpet announcing the severest expression of God's wrath (7th trumpet) have any relation whatsoever to a "last trumpet" calling the saints home (a proclamation of deliverance, salvation,  transformation, perfection, resurrection, glorification)?  

That in itself is so ludicrous, that one has to wonder where people come up with these untenable interpretations. 

Shabbat shalom, Ezra.

There are usually two sides to every coin. The "woe" side is to those who aren't looking for Yeshua`s Coming; the "deliverance" side is for those who are anticipating His Coming! It's simply a matter of perspective. To whom or about whom is the writer writing? IF he's writing to or about those who aren't looking for His Coming, then His Coming will be a "woe!" To those who anticipate His Coming, His Coming will be a "great joy!"

What you have to realize is that Yeshua`s Coming is PERMANENT. He's not going back to "Heaven." So, consequentially, neither are we! Put a "ceiling" on your Rapture! We're going THROUGH the "heavens" - the "skies" - and going to ISRAEL!

"Heaven," or rather, the "New Jerusalem," is coming HERE, after another 1000 years from His Coming. He's coming back to prepare for its arrival! And, there are LOTS of things that need to be done to prepare. The first is His JUDGMENT. An Israeli King has ALWAYS been a Judge, especially when the King is a wise king, like Shlomoh (Solomon) was. He is like the "Supreme Court" of Israel. Other simpler matters could be handled by local judges, but a matter could be escalated to the King, if the local judge couldn't find a solution.

When I was taught and believed that the Judgment Seat of Christ would be in "Heaven" during the 7 years, the whole concept was a bit fuzzy. How were all of us EVER going to be "judged" in such a short time? Mystically, like the Left Behind series implied, where we each have a "personal encounter" with the Savior all at one time? No. While that is certainly possible with God, He has NEVER even IMPLIED that will happen. God enjoys His GLORY - His FAME! He inhabits His PRAISE! "Fame" is being popular with everyone! "The condition of being known or talked about by many people, especially on account of notable achievements" is how one dictionary defines "fame." (Being known for BAD deeds is called "infamy.") Consequentially, it's not possible "to give God the glory" privately!

We define "praise" as "the expression of approval or admiration for someone or something." We also define it as "the expression of respect and gratitude as an act of worship." However, the thesaurus gives us these additional words:  "commend, express admiration for, applaud, pay tribute to, speak highly of, eulogize, compliment, congratulate, sing the praises of, rave about, go into raptures about, heap praise on, wax lyrical about, make much of, pat on the back, take one's hat off to, lionize, admire, hail, ballyhoo; (formal) laud." To do any of this properly, one must talk about WHY one is to be so congratulated or admired! By way of contrast, our sins might be mentioned and revealed to all others, not to embarrass or shame us, but ONLY in the sense to reveal how God has worked another of His mighty miracles in our lives to conquer that sin! It's not enough just to say "Praise the LORD" or even "Hallelujah" or "Alleluia" (the Greek transliteration of "HalleluJah")! One MUST mention His deeds, as well! This explains to the hearer WHY He is to be so praised! Look at the Song of Mosheh (Moishe or Moses), for example:

Exodus 15:1-19
1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying,
I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD (YHWH) is his name.
4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.
5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.
6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.
7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble.
8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.
10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.
11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.
13 Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.
14 The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina.
15 Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.
16 Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.
17 Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O LORD, which thy hands have established.
18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever.
19 For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea.
KJV

He described in detail what God did for them in their "insurmountable odds" that rescued them from the doom they faced!

In the Millennium, Yeshua`, who IS the Messiah King - the Christ, will be a Judge with more wisdom that Shlomoh had! Thus, the "Judgment Seat of Christ," or the "Judgment Seat of the Messiah," will continue for a THOUSAND YEARS!

In Yeshua`s Rescue - His "Salvation" - of the Jews, there are (1) those who are rescued and (2) those from whom He rescues, the victims and the perps (perpetrators). To the victims, His Rescue will be a time of victory and joy; to the perps, His Rescue will be a time of suffering, failure and loss. The perp will cry out (in Greek), "Ooahee!" or an English-speaking person might cry out, "Why?!" That was translated as "Woe!"

Edited October 29, 2016 by Retrobyter
to add the onomatopoeia

[Revelation Man]

21 hours ago, Last Daze said:

As usual, you're right and I'm wrong . . . unless I have that backwards too which is a distinct possibility. 

You're certainly entitled to believe whatever you wish for whatever reason seems good to you.  Just be careful that you don't exalt your version of eschatology above what really matters.

It has nothing to do with me and you, It is what God says, and He is right always. You must empty yourself from your ideas, or as they say let go and let God. I have not been a preacher and teacher to puff myself up, I do it because I care for others. By me going over 30 years without professing a belief in the Rapture one way or another, that should pretty much tell you, I never claim my own understanding as truth. Until the unction of God gives me the understanding, I only profess to have "IDEAS" on things/understandings, most things did not take 30 years. Is there any reason why Christendom has 25 beliefs on what Babylon is ? SURE....Because Christians by and large are not hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit doesn't confuse us. Either we should say, I have no Idea what Babylon and the Harlot is, but I have my own thoughts, or we should say, the Holy Spirit has revealed it to me.......And every one of those that say this should have the exact same understanding, so Satan is infiltrating the Churches and confusing people.

 

The Church does not go through any part of Jacobs 7 Years of Trouble, we are in Heaven. Read the Jewish Wedding Pattern.