Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Guest]

By the way, I am greatly encouraged by the number of responses so quickly, and the non combative tone of them so far, good job saints!

[Salty]

Those abodes are being prepared as we speak, according to Jesus' own words, in the New Jerusalem which will come down to Earth.

 

Yes, but that comes down out of Heaven to the earth after the end of this present world. Both Ezek.47 and Rev.22:14-15 give witness of the tree of life and God's River established on earth during Christ's Millennial reign. If you look up Bullinger's Companion Bible Appendixes online he gave a very detailed ground plan of the holy city, the santuary and oblation from the Book of Ezekiel, which includes those abodes of the priests in that Millennial time.

 

There's another lesson within that Biblical subject. The New Testament desciption of those 'abodes' ("mansions") by our Lord Jesus did not change His greater detail of it He first gave through His prophet Ezekiel back in the Old Testament Books. Often the Old Testament Books gives more detail of a matter in the New Testament Books. That's why we are to study both OT and NT.

[OakWood]

Hi Oakwood,

 

Brother in the great Commonwealth.

 

Now you have posed a very interesting question -

 

`Why on earth do we need to know about 666, Mystery Babylon & the mark of the Beast if we`re not going to be here?`

 

I have a few comments on this. Firstly the Body of Christ was not known by the prophets of the Old Testament for God didn`t tell them, (obviously). God kept it secret  -

 

`but we speak God`s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden mystery which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;.......`  (1 Cor. 2: 7 & 8) 

 

So God`s wisdom that through Christ there would be another `called out ` group called the Body of Christ. Now for this Body to come to full maturity in Christ (Eph. 4: 13 & 14) & not `tossed to & fro`....we by God`s Holy Spirit need to come into all the truth (John 16: 13 & 14) of Christ, His character & His purposes for 1. the Body of Christ. 2. Israel & 3. the Nations.

 

We are to grow up into Him. This involves knowing Him & what He is doing, for it does involve us. To be seated with Christ on His throne, (Rev. 3: 21) displaces where Lucifer & his order of angels ruled. Then we shall be making judgment upon those fallen angels & upon the world`s system. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3) Thus Daniel was shown this court but not told who they are. (Dan.7: 26) To know the eternal purposes of God for the three groups gives a full understanding of Christ & how He is going to deal with all authority & power.

 

Lastly, the book of Revelation is about four aspects of our Lord Jesus Christ, revealed to us by His Father. If we did not have the book of Revelation we would not have a full understanding of Christ & His glorious person in the heavenly realms & how He will deal with man`s rebellion. It is the culmination of all truths expressed from Genesis to Revelation, for all scripture is centred on one purpose & that is to reveal Christ to us in all His glory.

 

 

(I think you have touched on my favourite subject Oakwood - the Eternal Purposes - hope they encourage & inspire you also.)

 

I can appreciate that. The book of Revelation tells us about a lot more than just the Tribulation, but in that case why not leave it at that? Why ask "let him that hath understanding" as if it is a warning for us to look out? If we're raptured we'll probably get to know all about the Beast anyway so that piece of prophecy is kind of wasted.

 

And while we're at it, if there is meant to be a pre-Trib rapture then please try telling that to the thousands of Christians in the Middle East who are being raped, crucified and beheaded as we speak. They are going through their own terrible Tribulation right now. I know that they're not the first Christians in history to be persecuted but the scale is enormous and covers thousands of square miles and is one of the largest humanitarian disasters in history. What's more nobody is helping them, there is nowhere for them to go because there are no neighbouring friendly Christian nations, and the problem is escalating. As far as they are concerned the problem must feel truly Global.

I'll guess that there isn't one single pre-tribber amongst these people and if there is, I bet he's feeling a bit let down right now.

[Montana Marv]

 

 

 

I don't know of one single verse that pinpoints a mid - trib, pre - wrath or post - trib position.  If God the Father is the only one who knows when the Son (Bridegroom) is coming to retrieve His Bride;  It is not revealed in Scripture.  All I know that is the John 14 says it all.  I go to prepare a place for you in my Fathers House.  I am going there (My Fathers House) to prepare a place for you (us the Bride), and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back (for the Rapture) and take you to be with me, that you maybe where I am (In My Fathers House).  Yet Post -Trib believes we will be with Christ here on earth, not with Him in Heaven.

 

I go by, the First 69 Weeks of Daniel were all about Israel, and so will the 70th Week;  All about Israel,  I do not see the Church mentioned anywhere in the 70 Weeks of Daniel.  I only see Israel and Jerusalem.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

I don't understand why that would make your claims valid. Daniel is a Jewish book written for Jews so why would the Church be mentioned in it anyway? Name me one other OT book that mentions Christians and what they will be doing in the future?

If the Church was mentioned then Jews would have cottoned on to the fact that there would be other people around the World worshipping their God and not just them.

Maybe then, they would have accepted Christ, not just as somebody who they believed to have changed Jewish law, but somebody who did so to bring his message to other people who were outside that law.

If that were the case, Jesus would not have been betrayed, would not have died on the cross and his sacrificial mission to bring the gift of salvation would have been in vain.

 

What lies between the end of the 69th Week and the beginning of the 70th Week?

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

I don't follow you. Isn't the 70th week the Trib? Daniel would never mention the Church. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to criticise your opinion, I'm trying to understand it.

 

The Church Age lies between the two.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Persuaded]

Some scriptures supporting a pre-trib view…

 

Noah and Lot

Mat 24 mentions Noah, and the parallel account in Luke 17 mentions Noah and Lot. What do they have in common, which is specifically mentioned in Luke 17:29?

But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.

 

In Gen 6, Noah was spared from judgment.

In Gen 19:23, the angel sent to punish Sodom says he can’t do so, until Lot is removed.

 

Ruth:

In the text, Naomi doesn’t meet Boaz until after the wedding to Ruth (I wrote about Ruth in the typology thread if you want to see more about that)

 

Dan/Mat/Rev, and the different account of “saints”

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

This is either a scriptural contradiction, or the saints in Dan and Rev are not church saints. I conclude that all church are saints, but not all saints are church. The saints in Rev are not the church.

 

Rev saints vs. Church saints

First, the overcome/prevail bit, above^.

In Rev, the tribulation saints serve the throne (Rev 7:14-15), but church saints shall reign with Him (2 Tim 2:12) on the earth (Rev 5:10)

The church is not the 144k of Rev 7: John goes to exhaustive lengths to show that they are literal Israelites, by enumerating the tribes of Israel that they come from.

In Rev 18:4 the trib saints are admonished to “come out of her (Babylon)”. I hope no Church saint could be seen as living “in Babylon”- the opposite is true, we are in the Spirit (Rom 8:9).

The church is not (nor are the saints) "the dead", subject to the great white throne judgment of Rev 20. “The dead” is a category, from which we have been saved and removed. The GWTJ is where the guilty are sentenced.

 

The Rapture itself

Obviously, the word “rapture” doesn’t occur in the Bible. It derives from 1 Thes 4:17, “caught up” (harpazo, to seize, carry off, to snatch out or carry away), which latin translations rendered as rapturo, from which we get rapture in English. So the semantic argument against a rapture are just semantics.

 

Isa 26 19-21 Your dead shall live; [Together with] my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew [is like] the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead.

Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past.

For behold, the LORD comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain.

Look at John 14:1-3 to see which chambers are referred to here.

 

1 Cor 15:51-54

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The second coming or Day of the Lord is found throughout the OT, so this “mystery” (mysterion, a secret now revealed) is something else that has been revealed since, by the apostles. (Col 1:26)

 

This “snatching away” is in contrast to the Second Coming, where Christ descends from heaven and stands on the Mount of Olives and every eye sees Him and He sets up His Messianic Kingdom (Mat 24:29-31, Dan 12:1-3, Zech 12:10, 14:4, Jude 14-15)

 

At the rapture, Christ comes for His saints but at His Second Coming He comes with His saints. (1Thes 3:13)

 

The Trib is worldwide, but Israel-focussed

In the OT, the trib is referred to as “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jer 30:7).

Dan’s 70 weeks are “upon thy people, and thy holy city” (Dan 9:24).

Hos 5:15-6:2 indicates that Israel must petition the Lord for His return.

Mat 24:16-21 only make sense if written for a Jewish audience- a gentile in the tribulation isn’t likely to be in Judea, and doesn’t care about fleeing on the Jewish sabbath.

 

 

Israel is blind until…

in Luke 19:42 Jesus weeps over Jerusalem: Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things [which belong] unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

Then Paul ties this together with Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 

The blindness of Israel is lifted after the gentiles are “come in”. It is during her tribulation that God works to show Israel again that He is their God (Gen 17:7), and the mission of the 144k is successful, and they once again “see”.

 

The 2nd coming accounts come in two flavors

The “Day of the Lord” passages are about conquest, every eye shall see Him, the mountain split in two, earthquakes and signs in the heavens, really big stuff. (There’s hundreds, I won’t try to list them)

But there are also several smaller, quieter 2nd coming accounts. Thief in the night, the one taken/one left passages, an hour that you think not, etc. These two styles of reference lead me to believe there are two events or two aspects to the one event.

 

No man knows the day or hour (Mat 24:36)

Similar to above, the second coming passages fall into two categories of “unpredictable” and “predictable”.

If you are aware of Dan 9’s seventieth-week prophesy, and Jesus’ refinement of it in Mat 24:15, and Dan 12:7, and the same time frame reiterated in Rev 11 and 13, you have a clock by which to judge when the second coming will come. When you recognize the tribulation beginning you have a seven year clock, and when you see the two witnesses or the abomination that makes desolate you can calibrate your clock to 3.5 years or 1260 days.

Yet some second coming passages are described as thief in the night and at an hour when you think not, unpredictable. Since there are two types of events, a logical conclusion is they aren’t the same event.

 

The structure of the book of Revelation

Rev 1:19 gives an outline of the whole book: Write the things which thou hast seen (the Patmos vision), and the things which are (the seven churches, ch2-3), and the things which shall be hereafter (meta tauta, after these things, and the exact phrase is used twice in Rev 4:1).

“Church” is mentioned 7 times in chapters 2 and 3, and never again in the book. Chapters 2-3 are (in addition to the practical, local, admonitory aspects) a prophetic overview of church history from the apostolic beginnings (Ephesus), the persecuted or suffering church (Smyrna), the church that “married the world” (Pergamos) as it became the official religion of Constantine, the papal church that became like Jezebel as the source of false doctrine and inquisition (Thyatira), the remnant church of the reformation struggling to have more than just a reputation while it is in fact just dead orthodoxy (Sardis), the revived church that is saved from tribulation (Philadelphia), and the church in apostasy (Laodicea). Note all but the first two have a mention of His coming; the first two are past, the next five have their beginnings in the historic events mentioned but are ongoing and will see His coming.

So when John begins chapter 4 with “after these things” (meta tauta), it is referring to a time after the church. Chapter 4 begins in heaven, where he sees the 24 elders (presbyteros, frequently a church term), declaring that the Lamb has redeemed us to God by His blood (5:9), and made us kings and priests (5:10) which links to the churches in 1:6. The church kings and priests of 1:6 are in heaven in 5:10, and the tribulation begins with chapter 6. Overwhelmingly, the idioms and references of chapters 6-19 are jewish, with heavy emphasis on the elements of the tabernacle and the plagues of Egypt.

 

The restrainer removed before the “lawless one” is revealed

2 Thes 2:6-7 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains [will do so] until He is taken out of the way.

The “restrainer” is the Holy Spirit, but in His indwelling of the church. Jesus promised in John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-

These two can be reconciled by the removal of the church- when the church is removed, the HS reverts to the OT pattern where His presence is temporary and conditional (compare Saul and David, etc.).

If the restrainer must be removed before the lawless one (a title of the “antichrist”) is even revealed, that means the church is raptured a significant time before the beginning of the tribulation, since there is a process by which he comes to power.

[Guest]

Hi Persuaded, You put a lot of info into your post. I am reminded of something that an attorney once told me:

 

"A lot of bad evidence is not the equal of one piece of good evidence"

 

Is there anything you posted there, that you consider to be actually good evidence? If so, could you bring it out and explain what makes it good in your mind?

 

There is way too much there to respond to, but I will comment on a small section, because is is a long standing curiosity to me:

 

 

This “snatching away” is in contrast to the Second Coming, where Christ descends from heaven and stands on the Mount of Olives and every eye sees Him and He sets up His Messianic Kingdom (Mat 24:29-31, Dan 12:1-3, Zech 12:10, 14:4, Jude 14-15)

 

At the rapture, Christ comes for His saints but at His Second Coming He comes with His saints. (1Thes 3:13)

 

 

 

You assert that there is a distinction between the rapture and the second coming. That is a fine assertion. You go on to state that at the rapture,  Christ is coming for his saint, and at the second coming, He comes with His saints. Another fine assertion. 

 

Did you even read the opening post? There, I specifically mentioned this kind of statement as an example of what is not appropriate to this thread. Assertions are merely statements of one's position. This thread is supposed to be about scriptural evidence. So . . .

 

Where in scripture, are these assertions stated to be the case?

[Persuaded]

...

There is way too much there to respond to, but I will comment on a small section, because is is a long standing curiosity to me:

This “snatching away” is in contrast to the Second Coming, where Christ descends from heaven and stands on the Mount of Olives and every eye sees Him and He sets up His Messianic Kingdom (Mat 24:29-31, Dan 12:1-3, Zech 12:10, 14:4, Jude 14-15)

 

At the rapture, Christ comes for His saints but at His Second Coming He comes with His saints. (1Thes 3:13)

 

You assert that there is a distinction between the rapture and the second coming. That is a fine assertion. You go on to state that at the rapture,  Christ is coming for his saint, and at the second coming, He comes with His saints. Another fine assertion. 

...

Where in scripture, are these assertions stated to be the case?

 

 

 

I referred to 1 Thes 4:17. Here it is:

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here, the saints are going up.

 

I referred to 1 Thes 3:13. Here it is:

To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Here, Christ comes with His saints.

 

I've heard of the "round-trip" theory, sometimes called the snack lunch wedding feast theory, but it seems more likely that these are two separate events. If the bride is getting ready in Rev 19:7-8 and 14, who's on the earth awaiting His second coming? If the rapture happens at the second coming, how does the bride come with Him at the second coming?

 

My point in bringing up a lot of evidences wasn't to show them as proofs (although some are pretty tough for the posties to overcome), but that the pre-trib view is consistent with the Word from cover to cover. We see Christ "in the volume of the book", and every other correct doctrine is distributed through the whole book. If pre-trib is right, there will be hints of it throughout.

[Montana Marv]

 

There is evidence of the post-trib view, all the scripture about the second coming is the evidence of the post-trib view. This thread is from Omegaman, so I'll be sitting here waiting on the evidence of the pre-trib view.

Enoch

 

Are you post trib Second Coming  or are you post trib Rapture.  Your quote above is really off the wall.  No substance to it.

 

Who are the 24 Elders in Rev 4 and who do they represent?  Are these Spirits or are they Flesh.  They have crowns (rewards).  When were these given out?

 

I will be looking for your response.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

I guess Enoch is busy, so I will have to answer my own question.

 

Who are the 24 Elders?  Commentaries agree and disagree on this. In Rev 5:9 translations are different.  KJV has "us" (personal) as those who were purchased, other translations use "men" (more generic) as those who were purchased.

 

If one would lean to the KJV and "us" which is personal.  The NT Brothers in Christ, Bride of Christ are this "us".  The thing is that these 24 Elders have already received their "crown of glory" (their rewards).  This should put a lump in some throats yet cause others to weep.  This has great significance; being - Since these 24 have received their "Crown of Glory/Rewards) and have tossed them to the feet of Jesus; the Bema Seat of Christ in which Rewards are given out to the Church/Bride has already happened prior to the opening of the Scroll (Seals, Trumpets and Bowls Judgments).

 

Omegaman, See if you can pick this apart.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[ENOCH2010]

Marv the Bible doesn't say who the 24 elders are, so to put a name on them would be no more than a guess. They are called elders though, so instead of saying the elders are the church, I think they are possibly the 11 disciples and Paul, with the other 12 being old testament saints.

[Guest]

 

Omegaman, See if you can pick this apart.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Hey Marv,

I always enjoy a challenge, but the way my mind is working at this moment, I am not able to recognize that there was something said to pick apart. I will look at it again, when I have enough clarity of thought to understand what your point was. It is probably me, I have had a few strokes and some days my mind works better than others, today is not one of the best ones, but I plan to return.

 

In general though, I have a prejudice against the book of Revelation. One of the rules of exegesis, that I think is a sound one, suggests interpreting the less clear, indirect, and symbolic passages, in the light of the more clear, direct, and possibly literal passages.

 

So, I apply this by noting that Revelation is among the most symbolic and unclear passages to be found anywhere in scripture. Therefore, I tend to start with things like Matt 24/25, where Jesus is pretty thorough, non symbolic, and speaks in chronological language. Then I go to things such as Paul to the Thessalonians and the Corinthians, to see what clarifications he makes to the topic. Assembling that information into an orderly scenario, I then look at Revelation and see how one can understand it, in a way that it co-exists or agrees with the clearer passages.

 

You point out that  commentators disagree on the identity of the 24 elders, and in as much as I admittedly have been somewhat neglectful to the book of Revelation, I am probably not competent to disagree with any particular interpretation of their identity.

 

As I said though, I will look over your post on a 'clearer day', and get back to you.