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I don't think The Gospel was hidden to Abraham, for he had direct contact with Christ in OT times. The part about The Gospel going to Gentiles also was what was hidden, and that's what the mystery that Paul claimed was about.

 

I have a Companion Bible, a 1611 KJV study Bible put together by the 19th century Christian scholar E.W. Bullinger. He followed some of Darby's Dispensationalism which some parts I totally disagree with, like the idea Israel's deliverance being at a different timing than Christ's Church, i.e., the idea of 'tribulation saints' being about Israel and not Christ's Church.

 

That doctrine was formed because of Darby's secret pre-trib rapture theory. Since the NT reveals saints that go through the tribulation while Darby believed the Church would not and instead be raptured prior, something had to be done to explain the prophecy like Matt.24 of saints still on earth going through the tribulation. Simple, let's make those saints unbelieving Israel, and abbra cadabbra, problem solved.

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The debate continues, and I suppose it will until/if the church finds itself recognizing that the antichrist/man of sin/beast/son of perdition/abomination that cuases desolation/etc. has been revealed and recognized.

 

So, here is what I am asking, this is the question that this thread is about:

 

Where in the bible is it stated, or which combination of verses do you believe imply (evidentially, not wishfully) that there is either:

 

  • a secret coming of Jesus for the church before the great tribulation
  • an invisible coming of Jesus for the church
  • a two part second advent
  • a scriptural distinction of Jesus coming for His church, versus His coming with His church

From my perspective, in case it is not obvious, the only thing invisible about Jesus coming, is that it is that the pre-trib rapture is invisible in the sense that it is no where to be found in scripture.

 

Some of you disagree, what I am asking then, is for the biblical basis, the scriptural evidence, for one or more of the bulleted points (•) above. Some of you are so sure that Jesus will return before the great tribulation, that certainly you must have biblical evident of the truth or likelyhood, of the pre-trib return of Christ.

 

To those who want to reply in this thread:

Please stick to the premise of it, scriptural evidence for a coming of Jesus to catch up His church to be with Him prior to the great tribulation.

 

I know that I am asking a lot of people to stay on topic. I understand that people are passionate about their eschatological beliefs. However, please exercise some self control and not start in with a statement of or defense of your own, other than pre-trib persuasion.

 

Let's let this thread be limited to actual scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture.

 

Opposing viewpoints are o.k., but limit those to just enough to present an answer to any posts claiming to present scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture, without making it about what you believe instead.

 

To those taking up the challenge presented here, please note that I have gone to great lengths to be specific in limiting the type of posts appropriate to this thread. For example:

 

  • Stating that "the rapture is Jesus coming for His church before the trib" is a definition of your belief, and is not scriptural evidence, such a statement is just an opinion, and is evidence that you believe, not for your belief.
  • Stating things like "the church is not mentioned after verse such and such in Revelation", is also not evidence, it is merely an argument from silence.
  • Stating that "the church is not destined to suffer God's wrath" is also not evidence, unless you can prove that the whole to the great tribulation is in fact the wrath of God, and that if the church is present for that, that she cannot and will not be protected from God's wrath during the great tribulation

Hopefully, examples like those above, will convey the idea of what I am seeking, and that you can understand the nature of evidence as opposed to statements of faith in your doctrine. The idea here, is to present some quality reasons to believe in the pre-trib rapture. So here you have an opportunity. Please, give it a shot if you think that you have scriptural evidence.

 

Thanks in advance

Ok, let me try my hand in this...

 

First let me say that I do understand where you are coming from and I try very hard not to state opinion as fact.  And pre-tribbers are all guilty of using all the 'evidence' that you have stated in your OP.  But, I would have to say that posttribbers are just as guilty of this as pretribbers are.  Before I get started, let me qualify something.  I have yet to meet or talk with a single pretribber who does not belief that Jesus returns to the earth at the end of the tribulation.  Both pretribbers and posttribbers believe this to be true.  I have yet to meet a single pretribber who has really studied this topic who does not believe that there is a resurrection at the end of the tribulation.  If we both believe that Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, then proving that Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation does not prove either point. This would be like one person saying that the ocean is wet and salty, and the other says that it is wet and fresh, and the second one spending all of his time proving that the ocean is wet.

 

One of the main differences is that a posttribber believes that this resurrection is the rapture, and pretribbers do not.  ( stating that they are the same is just as much opinion as the 'evidence' that you are trying to stay away from )  So if there is scriptural evidence for believing that the resurrection that takes place at the end of the tribulation is not the rapture, then it by definition is evidence for a pretribulation rapture.  or at least a non posttrib rapture.

 

So this is where I will be directing this post.  First lets consider the nature of the rapture.  What is the rapture?  The rapture is the 'catching away' of the Bride of Christ.  Who is the Bride of Christ?  Everyone who is saved.  They make up the 'Church' and the 'Church' is 'Bride'.  In the old Testament, you had two types of people, the Children of Israel and the Gentiles.  If you were not part of the Children of Israel, then you were a Gentile, plain and simple.  In the New Testament, we also  have two types of people.  The Church, those people who are saved, and everyone else.  You are either saved or not saved.  If you are saved, then you are in the Bride, if you are not, then you are not.  There is no such thing as being partially saved.  No matter what you believe as far as OSAS, most Christians believe that you are either saved or lost. 

 

At the moment of the rapture, you are either saved or lost.  If you are saved, then you go up in the rapture, if you are lost, then you don't.  Pretrib or posttrib, doesn't matter.

 

1 Cor 15:51  51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

 

So whether you are dead or alive, if you are saved you will go into the rapture.  At this moment in time, there will be two types of people in the world.  Glorified believers, and lost unbelievers.  

 

Now when Christ returns, he fights the war of Armageddon, after which, he has the Judgment of the Sheep and Goats.  Matt 25:31-46.  If you believe in a post-tribulation rapture, then by definition, the sheep would be the glorified believers, and the goats would be everyone else.  What does he tell the Goats?  Matt 25:45-46  45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. 

So all the unbelievers are sent away into everlasting punishment.  And we begin the Millennium Reign of Christ with all believers, and if you are a post tribber, then everyone left has a glorified body, because the scripture says, we will all be changed.

But if that is true, then how is the earth repopulated during the Millennium?  People in glorified bodies do not marry, and since sex outside of marriage is a sin, we know that glorified bodies will not procreate.  Where do the children come from?  

Isaiah 65:20  20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Does the post trib rapture explain this verse?  no it does not.

Does a pretrib rapture explain it?  Yes it does.  We are raptured before the tribulation, God's focus turns again to Israel.  At the end of the tribulation, you have believers who have died during the tribulation, believers in their natural bodies who are still alive, and the glorified saints of the church in Heaven.  The Bride returns with Christ, the tribulation believers who have died are resurrected at the end of the tribulation, and the believers who are still alive in their natural bodies.  Every man woman and child who is still alive on the earth will be brought before Christ, and He will separate them like the sheep from the goats, the unbelievers are sent away, but the sheep, the ones still in their natural bodies are allowed to marry and repopulate the earth.  Their children will have children, and so on and so forth.

 

A pretrib rapture satisfies the Jesus' statement of the Judgment of the Sheep  and Goats in Matt 25, it satisfies Paul's statement of all being changed in 1 Cor, and allows for the children of the Millennium in Isaiah.  A Post tribulation rapture by it's definition must violate one of these statements.  

 

As Iron sharpens Iron, 

Joshua David

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^^Paul tells you what the mystery is that he is revealing, no need to guess: "That the gentiles should be fellowheirs".

Yes, Paul specifically says the gospel was preached before to Abraham. We can read the gospel in Isa 53. That doesn't change that it's meaning was hidden from OT eyes, since Paul tells us it was.

 

It is a silly mischaracterization to say that pre-trib was invented because someone didn't want to go through the trib. Pre-trib simply solves a lot of inconsistencies that exist in the scripture if the post trib view is held (I listed a bunch back in ). 

 

Here's wikipedia, with an article on the rapture written in either the 3rd century (or 6th but based on a 3rd century writer, hey, wiki is secular and crowdsourced, whaddaya expect), but  either date is significantly before Darby. Again, the "my theory is older" game is a waste of time, since Dan 12:4 says knowledge will increase:

 

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

 

If knowledge increases at the time of the end, surely we should take advantage to it!

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3 pages and not one shred of evidence yet, only opinion and speculation so far. The fact remains the dead in Christ raise at the first resurrection (as described in Rev 20) not at some resurrection prior to the tribulation, which by the way isn't even hinted at in the Bible. But to have a pre-trib rapture the pre-trib crowd has invented a pre-first resurrection.

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Sigh.

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3 pages and not one shred of evidence yet, only opinion and speculation so far. The fact remains the dead in Christ raise at the first resurrection (as described in Rev 20) not at some resurrection prior to the tribulation, which by the way isn't even hinted at in the Bible. But to have a pre-trib rapture the pre-trib crowd has invented a pre-first resurrection.

And the statement of the dead in Christ being raised at the 'First Resurrection' described in Rev 20, is as must opinion as all the statements that the pretribbers state.  I understand that is your interpretation, but if we are going to refrain from stating opinion as fact in this thread, shouldn't that rule apply post tribbers as well as pretribbers?

 

Enoch, why don't you address the points I raised in my post, I am sure that would be more productive to the discussion.

 

As Iron sharpens Iron, 

 

Joshua David

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3 pages and not one shred of evidence yet, only opinion and speculation so far. The fact remains the dead in Christ raise at the first resurrection (as described in Rev 20) not at some resurrection prior to the tribulation, which by the way isn't even hinted at in the Bible. But to have a pre-trib rapture the pre-trib crowd has invented a pre-first resurrection.

And yet the post trib crowd would all have to be demon and idol worshipers at some time per Rev 9:20.

Yet the pre trib crowd is not around to be a demon or idol worshipers.

 

3 pages and a lot of evidence; you just refuse to accept it.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

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FACT - 2 resurrections of a group of people are spoken about in Revelation, the first resurrection happens at the second coming of Christ, at the start of the 1000 year reign, the other resurrection happen after the 1000 year reign at the great white throne judgement . 

 

FACT - Any resurrection added prior to these, for a pre-trib rapture to accompany is adding to the Book.

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Hi Enoch2010,

 

The phrase `the first resurrection,` refers to the type of resurrection - The first resurrection is to life. (for the Body of Christ & later for those beheaded for the word of God...) The resurrection at the end of the millennium, means resurrection to judgment & if not in the book of life - eternal damnation.

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Marilyn is your statement, fact or opinion

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