Hell.

[brakelite]

this topic has been a hot (pun not intended) topic for a long time. There was a time when I believd as many do here, that eternal torment is a sure desiny for the wicked..I remember preaching on this many times. But 15 years ago I came to realise 3 major things which I believe are unarguable, putting the lie to my former belief system.

If eternal torment is true...if eternal torment is indeed the just punishment due the sinner...

1. Jesus did not spend eternity in torment, therefore my sins are not forgiven, the price of redemption not paid.

2. The nature of God forbids any scenario where His sense of justice is never satisfied...where justice is never accomplished, and so perverted and twisted that the price for sin is never fully paid for by the sinner, where the transgressor must spend eternity paying for a short life of sin, in some cases still children; and where that child, maybe an eleven year old, who died 700 years ago and presumably suffering now, suffers longer that the cruelest dictator who may die tomorrow.

3. The sinner is gifted eternal life along with the saint. The sinner merely resides at a different address. Yet we are told that 'death', merely means seperation from God. That the soul is immortal. And yet to accept all that, we need to believe that seperation from the only immortal life-giving Being in the universe, doesn't result in death? It simple does not make any sense whatsoever, aside from the fact that none of the above is taught in the Bible.

 

Yes, eternal punishment is taught. Death, from which there is no hope of a resurrection, is eternal. The Bible speaks of eternal punishment, not eternal punishing.

Yes, smoke ascends for ever and ever. Yet other instances in Hebrew literature(including the OT) speak of forever expiring at death.

Yes, the Bible speaks often of sinners suffering in flames. And so they will. According to that which was done in the body, a just duration  of time according to God's true justice, until the sinner dies the second death. Remember as I revealed in  my first post, that the fire is in fact the very presence of God. The sinner dies in the presence of God...even because of the presence of God, because sin cannot abide the presence of God. To claim that the death of the sinner merely means a separation between him/her and God, is meaningless, for how can any lving thing continue to live separated from the only source of life? Sinners are NOT immortal, either in body or spirit.

 

It seems to me in my more enlightened mind today that for anyone to support or defend eternal torment, one must be determined to do so irrespective of any teaching to the contrary. It seems strange to me that any would go to such lengths as some do in order to so reduce God's character to that which the pagans ascribe their gods from ancient history. The god created by those who support eternal torment is one of mans invention. It is not the God revealed to us in His word, nor lived by the One who came to reveal Him. So true is the axiom that because God created man in his own image, man has sought to return the compliment.

[Ezra]

4 hours ago, brakelite said:

Please tell me, how do you equate the words of scripture saying " They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might,"  with your own words, "everlasting torment"? Eternal destruction surely means simply that. To misconstrue it to mean eternal life, but just at a different address, is gravely (excuse the pun) misapplying scripture is it not?

You appear to be another one of those Annihilationists who believe that all sinners will simply evaporate. As Shiloh has pointed out, *destruction* in Scripture does not mean turning spirit beings and human beings into ashes while they evaporate.  You have conveniently ignored *eternal torment* which is also found in Scripture.

[Guest shiloh357]

3 hours ago, brakelite said:

If there was only one text which speaks of the sinners destruction, then perhaps, I would be inclined to agree with you, that maybe context or something else may help explain a different understanding to the word. However, there are numerous texts and even entire passages that speak of the sinners destruction. Even several of Jesus parables echo the very same thought and principle, for example the burning to ashes of the branches that didn't bear fruit. Here are a small selection for your perusal...

They shall be destroyed...Psalm 145:20;101:8;37:38;92:7;Prov.13:13;10:29;Phil.3:19;1 Tim.6:9; 2 Thess.1:9; Matt 7:13

 

They shall perish....Ps.37:20;Prov. 19:9; Luke 13:3; Jn 3:16.

 

Oh, and by the way...living forever...not ever dying but being subjected to torture without end and without hope...is eternal life.

 

They shall cease to exist. Psalm 37:10

perhaps I could add to that Malachi

4:1 ¶  For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2  But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3  And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

What you're doing is grabbing a lot of texts that talk about the physical destruction of God's enemies in this world and applying to them to the spiritual destruction of hell.   Sorry, but that's a sloppy way to handle Scripture.   You are ignoring the basic rules of context in order to string verses together to make the Bible appear to mean what you want it to mean.    Your theology, instead of being a product of sound interpretation, is driving your interpretation and that's how false teaching is made.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings brakelite...

     Yes it is really great that you are back here with us,glad you like all the changes,WCF has certainly come a long way....I do hope you are back to stay,Praise Jesus!

I'm rather curious about your username,being a car buff I can't help but wonder if it has anything to do with cars? Or perhaps giving fair warning for others to "Stop" & hear Gods Word,it is an "urgent"Message.....

 Anyway,back on Topic -lol    Well,speaking of "urgency",you do sound like an annihilationist & that makes no sense to me at all-I think it minimizes the necessity for a Savior....why would Jesus go through all He did for us if there was not impending danger ahead of us.....it wouldn't bother me in the least to simply be annihilated if I was a wicked hellion.....so what,merely burn up for an instant & cease to exist? There was a brief time,a long time ago,when I became very attracted to this concept,who wouldn't prefer the same,if it was a choice for us to make? I found everything to support my ideology only to have my bubble burst by the Still Small Voice Revealing His Truth.......not what I hoped for

   I don't really have to equate the Words of Scripture with "my" own words because I could not have said it any better than Shiloh,Ezra or even the gotquestions.org reference........

Quote

he most convincing evidence for the eternality of hell is Matthew 25:46, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” In this verse, the same Greek word is used to refer to the destiny of the wicked and the righteous. If the wicked are only tormented for an “age,” then the righteous will only experience life in heaven for an “age.” If believers will be in heaven forever, unbelievers will be in hell forever.
                                                             gotquestions.org

I used to grab straws ,taking verses out of context as a babe & after lengthy studies and in depth research into Koine Greek I could not refute Matthew 25:46,there was just no way to make Gods Word support annihilationism....I do hope you will "see" what I have seen because although for the Believer it is not a Salvational issue it can be a Salvational issue for the people we urge to "Run to the Lord" while He may be found if we do not Understand the urgency

                                                                                                                                               With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Behold]

A Christ Rejector has to end up somewhere., and wherever this is, they are going to stay for as long as God lives. 

The bible indicates a place of torment and a lake of fire.

 

[RustyAngeL]

19 minutes ago, Behold said:

A Christ Rejector has to end up somewhere., and wherever this is, they are going to stay for as long as God lives. 

The bible indicates a place of torment and a lake of fire.

 

As long as God lives?  Do you really think that God is going anywhere?

God is eternal, He always was and always will be.

The lake of fire is always going to be too. That is eternal and so are you. There will be no end to the torment of the unbeliever and there will be end of the joy for believers in Jesus in Heaven.

Blessings, RustyAngeL 

 

 

[Behold]

7 minutes ago, RustyAngeL said:

As long as God lives?  Do you really think that God is going anywhere?

God is eternal, He always was and always will be.

The lake of fire is always going to be too. That is eternal and so are you. There will be no end to the torment of the unbeliever and there will be end of the joy for believers in Jesus in Heaven.

Blessings, RustyAngeL 

 

 

Anyone who believes in God realizes that He has  no end or beginning.

So, when i say...."for as long as God lives", im pointing this out.......

Sort of like saying.........The lake of fire is not a problem, as long as fire is not hot.

Sort of like saying.......its not the fall that kills you, its the sudden stop.

Im actually reiterating the fact of God's eternity, by saying....."as long as God lives".

Edited August 6, 2016 by Behold

[Ezra]

11 hours ago, brakelite said:

It seems to me in my more enlightened mind today that for anyone to support or defend eternal torment, one must be determined to do so irrespective of any teaching to the contrary.

Brakelite,

You have not made any new discovery, and your *enlightened mind* has actually been deceived.  All you have done is regurgitate what the Jehovah's Witnesses and other cults have been preaching for a long time.  We already have a few threads which refute this false doctrine of yours (and other Annihilationists).  Someone else came along with this just recently on Worthy.

This is not a matter of defending *eternal torment* but defending sound Bible doctrine. If Heaven is real, so is Hell, and even the average person on the street knows this.

[brakelite]

14 hours ago, Ezra said:

You appear to be another one of those Annihilationists who believe that all sinners will simply evaporate. As Shiloh has pointed out, *destruction* in Scripture does not mean turning spirit beings and human beings into ashes while they evaporate.  You have conveniently ignored *eternal torment* which is also found in Scripture.

Why is it that a word such as Destruction means something totally different in scripture to its use in every other circumstance? Why is it that Christians cannot simply read the word in the same sense as it does naturally in  language and accept it as we would use it elsewhere? And can you please give me a clear text teaching eternal torment? And I am not denying there is torment. The thing is, that the fire of God does not tolerate sin. It frees the repentant man from his sin through Christ's baptim of fire, and it destroys both sin and unrepentant sinner together at the end of time, after an appropriate time of punishment. Sinners do not get off scot free by simply vanishing in a cloud of smoke.   I am simply upholding what scripture says without adding my own reasoning. Shiloh did not point out that destruction means something else in scripture than it does elsewhere. And neither have you.

[brakelite]

14 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

What you're doing is grabbing a lot of texts that talk about the physical destruction of God's enemies in this world and applying to them to the spiritual destruction of hell.   Sorry, but that's a sloppy way to handle Scripture.   You are ignoring the basic rules of context in order to string verses together to make the Bible appear to mean what you want it to mean.    Your theology, instead of being a product of sound interpretation, is driving your interpretation and that's how false teaching is made.

Okay, one can look at some of those scriptures and place that connotation upon them. So we shall forget the OT ones I posted, and just stick with the NT.

Phil. 3:18  (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19  Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

And because you mentioned context, the above is set in direct contradistinction to the verse which follow....

20  For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

So the above passage is not speaking of a physical death that eventually pertains to all of us except those who are changed at the second coming.

Let us look at another....1 Timothy 6:9  But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition....perdition means nothing other than the eternal fate of the wicked, so the word 'destruction' in this context, means just that.

Mt 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The above are the Lord's own words. And He sets destruction in direct contrast to life. Thus in harmony with the rest of scripture, Jesus sets clearly the choice we have before us. Life or destruction. Life or death. Lets see another showing the exact same context, and the exact same contrast between the two eternal destinies which face us....

Romans 9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

or there is this interesting one...

2 Peter 2:

1 ¶  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2  And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 ¶  And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4  For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5  And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6  And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

So in the above Sodom and Gomorrha are presented as examples for all who afterward would live ungodly lives, right? And contextually, from the previous verses, we are speaking of eternal consequences, not just the end of physical life on earth, although that took place also. Peter speaks of damnation...judgement....condemnation...now let us look at what Jude says of this same incident....

Jude 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Now isn't that interesting? Sodom and Gomorrha suffered eternal fire? Tell me. Are those cities being tormented today, are they still burning? Or are they destroyed, in perfect harmony and in perfect agreement with the rest of scripture?

The punishment is eternal. It is death. It is destruction. It is eternal because there is no hope of a resurrection...no hope of being recreated...no hope of any form of life whatsoever.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever should believe in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.