Hell.

[brakelite]

9 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings brakelite...

     Yes it is really great that you are back here with us,glad you like all the changes,WCF has certainly come a long way....I do hope you are back to stay,Praise Jesus!

I'm rather curious about your username,being a car buff I can't help but wonder if it has anything to do with cars? Or perhaps giving fair warning for others to "Stop" & hear Gods Word,it is an "urgent"Message.....

 Anyway,back on Topic -lol    Well,speaking of "urgency",you do sound like an annihilationist & that makes no sense to me at all-I think it minimizes the necessity for a Savior....why would Jesus go through all He did for us if there was not impending danger ahead of us.....it wouldn't bother me in the least to simply be annihilated if I was a wicked hellion.....so what,merely burn up for an instant & cease to exist? There was a brief time,a long time ago,when I became very attracted to this concept,who wouldn't prefer the same,if it was a choice for us to make? I found everything to support my ideology only to have my bubble burst by the Still Small Voice Revealing His Truth.......not what I hoped for

   I don't really have to equate the Words of Scripture with "my" own words because I could not have said it any better than Shiloh,Ezra or even the gotquestions.org reference........

I used to grab straws ,taking verses out of context as a babe & after lengthy studies and in depth research into Koine Greek I could not refute Matthew 25:46,there was just no way to make Gods Word support annihilationism....I do hope you will "see" what I have seen because although for the Believer it is not a Salvational issue it can be a Salvational issue for the people we urge to "Run to the Lord" while He may be found if we do not Understand the urgency

                                                                                                                                               With love-in Christ,Kwik

Thanks for the welcome. As for my name, it isn't so much as 'urgency', but you are right, it does have a connotation of 'capturing attention', so to speak. I explain it this way on my blog.

Traffic can be hell. Distractions, speeding, intolerance, abuse, rudeness…and much more can make traveling from one place to another a nightmare. It can be frustrating, dangerous, confusing, fraught with near misses and worse, at times one can get lost, even never reaching the intended destination.

Which brings me to the ‘brakelite’. A bright warning light on the rear of the vehicles ahead that scream ‘hold-up’, ‘slow down’, or even ‘STOP’, but always when displayed it gives the following driver pause, and awakens one senses to seriously consider the way ahead. To evaluate the options, and choose wisely, hopefully, a safe line of travel, even if necessary in certain circumstances like a ‘detour’,  turning around and going another way,.

‘Brakelite’ is the pseudonym  I write under. For precisely the same reasons as described above. My hope is that as one reads my articles they will pause, consider their options, and choose wisely their way ahead. My hope and prayer is that all who read will safely arrive one day at the New Jerusalem, where we may meet by the grace of God and never more to worry over traffic jams

Now to Matt 25:46....

46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I am unsure as to why so many resort to this verse in defense of eternal torment, for that is not what it says, or even suggests. 'Eternal torment' is an interpretation given it by those whose preconceived notions need some form of affirmation to an otherwise indefensible doctrine. The word is everlasting punishment. In other words, whatever punishment we decide it is, it is everlasting. 

Please note that this verse reads “punishment” instead of“punishing”. And what is the punishment for sin and sinners? The answer is in 2Thessalonians 1:8, 9: “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.” You see,  the punishment is here called everlasting destruction. Thus we can see that the wicked do go away into everlasting punishment because it is an everlasting destruction from which there will be no resurrection. Thus we see how clear and plain the Bible truth is made by allowing it to explain itself. The everlasting nature of it refers to its result, not to its continuation or ongoing process.

As to the "ease of escape" that annihilation presents to you, I would agree with you, that when compared to eternal torment. annihilation would be a far better alternative. But that is not the choice facing us in life. The choice we face in life is not between non-stop punishing and destruction, but between eternal life and eternal death. A death where the separation from God, the only source of life, means a complete absence of life. With no hope of a resurrection. That choice Kwik is far easier, and I will take life every time.

Edited August 7, 2016 by brakelite

[brakelite]

7 hours ago, RustyAngeL said:

 

God is eternal, He always was and always will be.

The lake of fire is always going to be too. That is eternal and so are you. There will be no end to the torment of the unbeliever and there will be end of the joy for believers in Jesus in Heaven.

Blessings, RustyAngeL 

 

 

There is no evidence in scripture that a sinner has eternal life...either physically or spiritually. Remember, Jesus warned of he who would destroy both soul AND body in hell. And when does this take place?  After the second resurrection , which is for the wicked only, at the end of the 1000 years. The New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to the earth, the wicked gather round the city after having been resurrected to face their final sentence, fire comes down from God and devours them This scene plays out on the surface of the earth! The earth is then recreated and it becomes our home. And as Malachi says, we then walk upon the ashes of those just destroyed. The same fire that destroys those wicked also cleanses the earth and prepares it for new life. Everything that does not belong to righteousness and holiness is forever gone...including sinners...sin....death.

[brakelite]

7 hours ago, Ezra said:

Brakelite,

You have not made any new discovery, and your *enlightened mind* has actually been deceived.  All you have done is regurgitate what the Jehovah's Witnesses and other cults have been preaching for a long time.  We already have a few threads which refute this false doctrine of yours (and other Annihilationists).  Someone else came along with this just recently on Worthy.

This is not a matter of defending *eternal torment* but defending sound Bible doctrine. If Heaven is real, so is Hell, and even the average person on the street knows this.

Just because you disagree with someone else's beliefs does not warrant them being classed as "cult status". Nor did I claim it was a 'new discovery'. What I discovered personally was what Jesus and His disciples taught...as well as many of the reformers. You could add to that a growing number of well known theologians such as N T Wright. And please, please, the thoughts of the average man in the street may be sufficient evidence for you to determine the truth of scripture, but don't expect everyone me to. I know of very few Bible truths that the majority have completely correct. 

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, brakelite said:

And can you please give me a clear text teaching eternal  torment?

For ever and ever is self-explanatory.

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:10,11).

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10).

[brakelite]

27 minutes ago, Ezra said:

For ever and ever is self-explanatory.

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:10,11).

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10).

No, not so self-explanatory. See and compare Jonah 1:17 and 2:6, also Deuteronomy 23:3. One thing which you must face in your contention that God torments sinners into eternity, is the fact that if true, then sinners must have immortal life. Prove to me that, then I will begin to entertain the idea of eternal torment. 

[RustyAngeL]

1 hour ago, brakelite said:

There is no evidence in scripture that a sinner has eternal life...either physically or spiritually. Remember, Jesus warned of he who would destroy both soul AND body in hell. And when does this take place?  After the second resurrection , which is for the wicked only, at the end of the 1000 years. The New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to the earth, the wicked gather round the city after having been resurrected to face their final sentence, fire comes down from God and devours them This scene plays out on the surface of the earth! The earth is then recreated and it becomes our home. And as Malachi says, we then walk upon the ashes of those just destroyed. The same fire that destroys those wicked also cleanses the earth and prepares it for new life. Everything that does not belong to righteousness and holiness is forever gone...including sinners...sin....death.

Really?  What about the rich man and Lazarus?. Yes there is eternity for the unsaved and it's not pleasant  picture. There is outer darkness, there are flames.  Where do you think the unsaved go?  Very dangerous doctrine to teach. 

[brakelite]

1 hour ago, RustyAngeL said:

Really?  What about the rich man and Lazarus?. Yes there is eternity for the unsaved and it's not pleasant  picture. There is outer darkness, there are flames.  Where do you think the unsaved go?  Very dangerous doctrine to teach. 

Where in that parable is there any suggestion that Lazarus has eternal life? Because that is my question. What evidence is there in scripture that a sinner has eternal life? I don't know what Bible you use, but mine says in Romans 6:23 that the wages of sin is death. And there is a text in Ezekiel that states 'the soul that sinneth, it shall die'. If you are going to take the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as an example of literal Biblical teaching, then after the resurrection we must all go to Abraham's bosom, from which place we will all be able to see the wicked suffer. As one of the presumed pleasures of paradise I think I'll skip that as something to look forward to.

I am not contending that sinners don't suffer. Jesus made it extremely plain that the destiny of the wicked was something to avoided, even at the cost of an arm or an eye. What I am questioning is the claim that the wicked receive the gift of immortality along with the righteous. I have never seen, nor do I expect anyone to provide it, evidence that this is so.

When Adam and Eve were booted from the garden, an angel was placed at the gate, 'to guard the way to the tree of life'. Why? In God's own words, "In case a sinner eat of the tree of life and live forever. God's purposes have never, I repeat NEVER, been to immortalize sin, or the sinner. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, so that the future of mankind, and the future security of the entire universe and kingdom of God, would be assured.

[HAZARD]

The only things I know about Hell is what is written in the Scriptures.
Hell is mentioned in many dozens of Scriptures throughout the Bible. There are five departments in the underworld of departed Spirits, not one of these places is associated with or is the grave where bodies are buried.
These five departments are;

One). Paradise;
In Luke 16:19-31; 23:43, we have pictured total comfort and water in this prison because the rich man saw Lazarus afar off in comfort and bliss and asked him to dip his finger in water and cool his tongue (Luke 16:19-31).

This was the abode of the righteous souls from Adam after dying and leaving their bodies, being held captive by the devil against their wills till Christ's death and resurrection (Heb. 2:14-15; Eph. 4:7-11).Before Jesus Christ conqured the power of death and Hell, the devil had these powers. (Col. 2:14-17; Heb. 2:14-15; Rev. 1:18).

It was into this prison the repentant thief went with Christ the day they both died (Luke 23:43). This prison is located in the heart of the Earth as is clear from (Matt. 12:40 and Eph. 4:7-11).

Jesus not only went into this prison but He also went into another prison, "Tartarus," and preached to the fallen angels being held there in their own special prison, "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." (Jude 1:6). "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" (2 Peter 2:4).

Jesus having conqured Hell and death and the grave during His crucifiction and during the three days He was in the underworld, He captured all the righteous souls that were in Paradise and took them to Heaven when He ascended on high (Eph. 4:7-11).

Jesus now has the keys to Hell and death (Rev. 1:18).

When we check every Scripture provided in God's Word, we cannot believe Jesus did not go to Hell, preach to the SPIRITS there, and He also captured all the righteous souls, Abraham, Moses, Isac, David, and all the others rightious souls that were in Paradise and took them to Heaven when He ascended on high.

The five departments of Hell are;

One). Paradise, which we are speaking of here;

In Luke 16:19-31; 23:43, we have pictured total comfort and water in this prison because the rich man saw Lazarus afar off in comfort and bliss and asked him to dip his finger in water and cool his tongue (Luke 16:19-31). This was the abode of the righteous souls from Adam after dying and leaving their bodies, being held captive by the devil against their wills till Christ's death and resurrection (Heb. 2:14-15; Eph. 4:7-11). Before Jesus Christ conqured the power of death and Hell, the devil had these powers. (Col. 2:14-17; Heb. 2:14-15; Rev. 1:18).
It was into this prison the repentant thief went with Christ the day they both died (Luke 23:43). This prison is located in the heart of the Earth as is clear from Matt. 12:40 and Eph. 4:7-11. Jesus not only went into this prison but He also went into another prison, "Tartarus," and preached to the fallen angels being held there in their own special prison. Jesus having conqured Hell and death and the grave during His crucifiction and during the three days He was in the underworld, He captured all the righteous souls that were in Paradise and took them to Heaven when He ascended on high (Eph. 4:7-11). Jesus now has the keys to Hell and death (Rev. 1:18). Rightious souls who die now no longer go here. They go straight to Heaven when they die.

Two). Tartarus; This prison is the special prison for the fallen angels that sinned both before and after the flood. There is nothing recorded in Scripture that teaches demons or human beings ever go into this prison. In these passages it is clear that there is a real Hell that is not the grave and that Spirit beings are confined in chains until judgment (1 Pet. 3:19; 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6-7).

Three). Hell itself; (Matt. 16:18; Luke 16:19-31). This is the torment part in the unseen world and was, still is, and will yet be the abode of all the wicked souls and spirits of men from Able to the end of the Millennium. Then, at this time all the wicked will be liberated out of this prison and will be given their own immortal bodies and be judged before being cast into the "lake of fire" forever (Rev. 20:11-15; 21:8).

Four). The Bottomless Pit or Abyss is the abode or prison of demons and certain angelic beings. No human being is ever thrown into the abyss. It is a very deep chasm in the lower parts of the Earth. It is translated "deep" (Luke 8:26-31; Romans 10:7) and "Bottomless Pit" in Rev. 9:1-3, 11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1-10). All these Scriptures prove that there are prisons in the lower parts of the Earth for departed sinning spirits, and they are not and could never be the same as a grave on the surface of the Earth.

And Five). The Lake of Fire, is the eternal Hell and perdition of wicked men, demons, fallen angels, and all rebellious creatures of all ages who have ever rebelled against God, and who have refused to repent when they could have. It is called "The Gehenna of Fire" and is always translated Hell (Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43-45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6). This prison is also called "the second death, which is the lake of fire" (Rev. 2:11; 20:6, 14). This final Hell was prepared for the devil and all his angels (Matt. 25:41-46), and for all other rebells, and it is ETERNAL in duration (Rev. 14:9-14; 20:10-15; Isa. 66:22-24; Matt. 25:46). There is no record in Scripture of anyone being the lake of fire at present. Scripture does show that the beast and the false prophet will be the first to be cast into it. This will happen before the Millennium (Rev. 19:20). They will still be there 1,000 years later when the devil and all other rebels will be cast into it (Rev. 20:10-15).

Scripture also teaches that there will be degrees of punishment in Hell as far as remorse and torment of the conscience is concerned (Matt. 10:15; 11:22; 12:41; 23:14; Mark 6:11; 12:40; Luke 10:14; 11:31, 32; 20:47).

 These degrees of punishment will be because of the kind of sins committed by one that were not committed by another. No man will be punished or could have remorse over something he did not do. They will all regret rebelling against God and man and failing to believe in Jesus, and repenting of sin.

 

In the near future men on Earth will be able to look into a real burning Hell under the Earth. This is plainly stated in Isa. 66:22-24 where the prophet predicts that all natural men in the New earth will be able to look into Hell upon the men that have sinned against God.

Rev. 14:9-11 also proves that men will be tormented in the presence of God and angels forever. These passages are literal and should be understood just as they rea

 

God forces no one to obey Him. 

Men can and  must freely choose to love and obey God to receive all of His promised blessings. If they choose to obey the will reap all the promised blessings, if they choose to disobey, to rebel, to sin, they will reap the promised curses.

God created hell for the devil, his angels and his rebel followers.

When its all done and dusted men will be able to look into Hell for ever and see those there suffering in eternal flames if they want to see. It will be a good reminder of where one will end up if one chooses to fall. Hell will be an eternal monument.

It is plainly stated in Isiah 66:22-24, where the prophet predicts that all natural men on the New earth will be able to look into Hell upon men who have FREELY CHOSEN to sin and rebel against God. Revelation 14:9-11 also proves that men will be tormented in the presence of God and His faithful angels forever. These are literal passages and should be understood just as they are read.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Brakelite

     Thanks for sharing the story about your username,wonderful,Praise Jesus!

Quote

I am unsure as to why so many resort to this verse in defense of eternal torment,                                     in ref to Matt25:46

I did try to explain "who so many" use this particular verse of Scripture to establish the definition of "eternal/everlasting" ,this is the one verse (both in Hebrew and Greek) the exact same word is used twice,once for the wicked & once for the Saved.....they are equal,the same,no different   English translations can vary but the earliest texts we have in the original languages remain the same,they are consistent......

To support & expound on defining that description,Ezra offered Rev !4:10-11,I cannot see how it could be an clearer

Fire,as we know it is all consuming,anything it touches burns until it is ashes,it exists no more......that makes perfect sense in the natural,our finite minds use reason & logic   God is Infinite,Eternal,Supernatural,our spirits will no longer be in this place....we will no longer live in the natural world as we know it,for now we see dimly

Moses looked at a burning bush ,it was engulfed by the Supernatural Fire of God,it did not burn up,turn to ash or die but I think it may be safe to say that Fire was hot!You yourself used the Tongues of Fire at Pentecost to support your Theory,I don't see how,the men we not harmed by the Supernatural Tongues of Fire,shouldn't their hair have caught on fire? These were Supernatural,These examples prove to me that the tormenting fires of hell with not burn up a soul until it ceases to exist & again,I am pretty sure it will get mighty hot.....I know I would not want to test it out

                                                                                                           With love-in Christ,Kwik

[RustyAngeL]

13 hours ago, HAZARD said:

The only things I know about Hell is what is written in the Scriptures.
Hell is mentioned in many dozens of Scriptures throughout the Bible. There are five departments in the underworld of departed Spirits, not one of these places is associated with or is the grave where bodies are buried.
These five departments are;

One). Paradise;
In Luke 16:19-31; 23:43, we have pictured total comfort and water in this prison because the rich man saw Lazarus afar off in comfort and bliss and asked him to dip his finger in water and cool his tongue (Luke 16:19-31).

This was the abode of the righteous souls from Adam after dying and leaving their bodies, being held captive by the devil against their wills till Christ's death and resurrection (Heb. 2:14-15; Eph. 4:7-11).Before Jesus Christ conqured the power of death and Hell, the devil had these powers. (Col. 2:14-17; Heb. 2:14-15; Rev. 1:18).

It was into this prison the repentant thief went with Christ the day they both died (Luke 23:43). This prison is located in the heart of the Earth as is clear from (Matt. 12:40 and Eph. 4:7-11).

Jesus not only went into this prison but He also went into another prison, "Tartarus," and preached to the fallen angels being held there in their own special prison, "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." (Jude 1:6). "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" (2 Peter 2:4).

Jesus having conqured Hell and death and the grave during His crucifiction and during the three days He was in the underworld, He captured all the righteous souls that were in Paradise and took them to Heaven when He ascended on high (Eph. 4:7-11).

Jesus now has the keys to Hell and death (Rev. 1:18).

When we check every Scripture provided in God's Word, we cannot believe Jesus did not go to Hell, preach to the SPIRITS there, and He also captured all the righteous souls, Abraham, Moses, Isac, David, and all the others rightious souls that were in Paradise and took them to Heaven when He ascended on high.

The five departments of Hell are;

One). Paradise, which we are speaking of here;

In Luke 16:19-31; 23:43, we have pictured total comfort and water in this prison because the rich man saw Lazarus afar off in comfort and bliss and asked him to dip his finger in water and cool his tongue (Luke 16:19-31). This was the abode of the righteous souls from Adam after dying and leaving their bodies, being held captive by the devil against their wills till Christ's death and resurrection (Heb. 2:14-15; Eph. 4:7-11). Before Jesus Christ conqured the power of death and Hell, the devil had these powers. (Col. 2:14-17; Heb. 2:14-15; Rev. 1:18).
It was into this prison the repentant thief went with Christ the day they both died (Luke 23:43). This prison is located in the heart of the Earth as is clear from Matt. 12:40 and Eph. 4:7-11. Jesus not only went into this prison but He also went into another prison, "Tartarus," and preached to the fallen angels being held there in their own special prison. Jesus having conqured Hell and death and the grave during His crucifiction and during the three days He was in the underworld, He captured all the righteous souls that were in Paradise and took them to Heaven when He ascended on high (Eph. 4:7-11). Jesus now has the keys to Hell and death (Rev. 1:18). Rightious souls who die now no longer go here. They go straight to Heaven when they die.

Two). Tartarus; This prison is the special prison for the fallen angels that sinned both before and after the flood. There is nothing recorded in Scripture that teaches demons or human beings ever go into this prison. In these passages it is clear that there is a real Hell that is not the grave and that Spirit beings are confined in chains until judgment (1 Pet. 3:19; 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6-7).

Three). Hell itself; (Matt. 16:18; Luke 16:19-31). This is the torment part in the unseen world and was, still is, and will yet be the abode of all the wicked souls and spirits of men from Able to the end of the Millennium. Then, at this time all the wicked will be liberated out of this prison and will be given their own immortal bodies and be judged before being cast into the "lake of fire" forever (Rev. 20:11-15; 21:8).

Four). The Bottomless Pit or Abyss is the abode or prison of demons and certain angelic beings. No human being is ever thrown into the abyss. It is a very deep chasm in the lower parts of the Earth. It is translated "deep" (Luke 8:26-31; Romans 10:7) and "Bottomless Pit" in Rev. 9:1-3, 11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1-10). All these Scriptures prove that there are prisons in the lower parts of the Earth for departed sinning spirits, and they are not and could never be the same as a grave on the surface of the Earth.

And Five). The Lake of Fire, is the eternal Hell and perdition of wicked men, demons, fallen angels, and all rebellious creatures of all ages who have ever rebelled against God, and who have refused to repent when they could have. It is called "The Gehenna of Fire" and is always translated Hell (Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43-45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6). This prison is also called "the second death, which is the lake of fire" (Rev. 2:11; 20:6, 14). This final Hell was prepared for the devil and all his angels (Matt. 25:41-46), and for all other rebells, and it is ETERNAL in duration (Rev. 14:9-14; 20:10-15; Isa. 66:22-24; Matt. 25:46). There is no record in Scripture of anyone being the lake of fire at present. Scripture does show that the beast and the false prophet will be the first to be cast into it. This will happen before the Millennium (Rev. 19:20). They will still be there 1,000 years later when the devil and all other rebels will be cast into it (Rev. 20:10-15).

Scripture also teaches that there will be degrees of punishment in Hell as far as remorse and torment of the conscience is concerned (Matt. 10:15; 11:22; 12:41; 23:14; Mark 6:11; 12:40; Luke 10:14; 11:31, 32; 20:47).

 These degrees of punishment will be because of the kind of sins committed by one that were not committed by another. No man will be punished or could have remorse over something he did not do. They will all regret rebelling against God and man and failing to believe in Jesus, and repenting of sin.

 

In the near future men on Earth will be able to look into a real burning Hell under the Earth. This is plainly stated in Isa. 66:22-24 where the prophet predicts that all natural men in the New earth will be able to look into Hell upon the men that have sinned against God.

Rev. 14:9-11 also proves that men will be tormented in the presence of God and angels forever. These passages are literal and should be understood just as they rea

 

God forces no one to obey Him. 

Men can and  must freely choose to love and obey God to receive all of His promised blessings. If they choose to obey the will reap all the promised blessings, if they choose to disobey, to rebel, to sin, they will reap the promised curses.

God created hell for the devil, his angels and his rebel followers.

When its all done and dusted men will be able to look into Hell for ever and see those there suffering in eternal flames if they want to see. It will be a good reminder of where one will end up if one chooses to fall. Hell will be an eternal monument.

It is plainly stated in Isiah 66:22-24, where the prophet predicts that all natural men on the New earth will be able to look into Hell upon men who have FREELY CHOSEN to sin and rebel against God. Revelation 14:9-11 also proves that men will be tormented in the presence of God and His faithful angels forever. These are literal passages and should be understood just as they are read.

The rich man and Lazerus, that is the one that I was talking about.  The rich was in flames, he was in torment.  When you speak of 

 

14 hours ago, brakelite said:

Where in that parable is there any suggestion that Lazarus has eternal life? Because that is my question. What evidence is there in scripture that a sinner has eternal life? I don't know what Bible you use, but mine says in Romans 6:23 that the wages of sin is death. And there is a text in Ezekiel that states 'the soul that sinneth, it shall die'. If you are going to take the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as an example of literal Biblical teaching, then after the resurrection we must all go to Abraham's bosom, from which place we will all be able to see the wicked suffer. As one of the presumed pleasures of paradise I think I'll skip that as something to look forward to.

I am not contending that sinners don't suffer. Jesus made it extremely plain that the destiny of the wicked was something to avoided, even at the cost of an arm or an eye. What I am questioning is the claim that the wicked receive the gift of immortality along with the righteous. I have never seen, nor do I expect anyone to provide it, evidence that this is so.

When Adam and Eve were booted from the garden, an angel was placed at the gate, 'to guard the way to the tree of life'. Why? In God's own words, "In case a sinner eat of the tree of life and live forever. God's purposes have never, I repeat NEVER, been to immortalize sin, or the sinner. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, so that the future of mankind, and the future security of the entire universe and kingdom of God, would be assured.

The rich man was in torment.  He spoke of being in torment in this flame. As stated by my brother, he wanted a drop of water to cool his tongue because of the being in torment.  That is exactally where the rich man was, in hell and in torment.

As for what Bible I read, I read the word of God.  Only I don't cherry pick those things I want to believe and cast the rest aside. 

There is going to be eternal life for those who reject Jesus, in hell.  It may sound harsh but it is truth and it needs to be spoken, there are to many precious souls at risk and they need to know that Jesus loved them enough to give them a way out. 

Blessings, RustyAngeL