Hell.

[missmuffet]

9 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Thats why its called the second death....there is no life. One would have to spirtualize the word death to give its opposite meaning to be life. Immortality is only granted to those who's names are written in the book of life. 

That is not Biblical. Those who go to hell will suffer a judgment for an eternity which is forever and ever never ending. They will be very aware of this torture in resurrected bodies.

Question: "What is the second death?"

Answer: The second death is mentioned on multiple occasions in the book of Revelation and is synonymous with the lake of fire. It is a “death” in that it is a separation from God, the Giver of life. It is called the “second” one because it follows physical death.

Revelation 21:8 explains the second death in the most detail: “The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars – their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Three other places in Revelation also mention the second death. The first is Revelation 2:11: “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.” In this verse, Jesus promises that believers (“overcomers”; see 1 John 5:4) will not experience the lake of fire. The second death is exclusively for those who have rejected Christ. It is not a place believers in Christ should fear.

Revelation 20:6 speaks of the second death in relation to a future period called the Millennium: “Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.” This verse notes three important facts. First, those who die for their faith in Jesus during the Tribulation will later be resurrected to enter the Millennium and live with Him. Second, these martyrs will escape the lake of fire or second death. Third, they will reign with Christ.

The second death is also mentioned in Revelation 20:14-15: “Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” At the end of time, even death and the grave (Hades) will be thrown into the lake of fire. In addition, every person not included in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. This condition will be final; the destination is permanent.

In summary, the second death is a reference to the lake of fire where those who are separated from God by their sin will dwell for eternity. This judgment was recorded in Scripture as a warning to unbelievers to seek the salvation that Jesus Christ provides. The coming judgment should also challenge believers to share their faith. There is a vast difference between the final destination of those who know Christ and those who do not.

http://www.gotquestions.org/second-death.html

[missmuffet]

Hell is real and hell is eternal. That is very convenient for those who do not believe in Christ or those who claim to be a Christian who are not in Christ to say that they will be annihilated and destroyed. It is not that easy. They will be in hell and very conscious of their suffering for an eternity.

Question: "Is hell real? Is hell eternal?"

Answer: It is interesting that a much higher percentage of people believe in the existence of heaven than believe in the existence of hell. According to the Bible, though, hell is just as real as heaven. The Bible clearly and explicitly teaches that hell is a real place to which the wicked/unbelieving are sent after death. We have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23). The just punishment for that sin is death (Romans 6:23). Since all of our sin is ultimately against God (Psalm 51:4), and since God is an infinite and eternal Being, the punishment for sin, death, must also be infinite and eternal. Hell is this infinite and eternal death which we have earned because of our sin.

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Praise God that, through Jesus, we can escape this eternal fate (John 3:16, 18, 36).

http://www.gotquestions.org/hell-real-eternal.html

[RustyAngeL]

38 minutes ago, inchrist said:

And you dont find that a bit bizarre? Why just a drop of water on the tongue? Why not ask for his whole body? Theres a lession in the rich man and Lazarus parable concerning the tongue.

Well the Bible says that the tongue is the smallest member yet it can do the most damage.  That same tongue can also speak the word of truth.  He did ask that his brothers be told about this so they would not end up in the same place he was.  Something to think about.

Blessing RustyAngeL

[missmuffet]

I think most of those who deny hell are just dealing with......FEAR. And rightly so.

[Guest Thallasa]

20 hours ago, brakelite said:

Why is it that a word such as Destruction means something totally different in scripture to its use in every other circumstance? Why is it that Christians cannot simply read the word in the same sense as it does naturally in  language and accept it as we would use it elsewhere? And can you please give me a clear text teaching eternal torment? And I am not denying there is torment. The thing is, that the fire of God does not tolerate sin. It frees the repentant man from his sin through Christ's baptim of fire, and it destroys both sin and unrepentant sinner together at the end of time, after an appropriate time of punishment. Sinners do not get off scot free by simply vanishing in a cloud of smoke.   I am simply upholding what scripture says without adding my own reasoning. Shiloh did not point out that destruction means something else in scripture than it does elsewhere. And neither have you.

One can destroy something , but in a way it still exists ,  just not as it did before . It is broken , lost it's function , is in pièces , rotting ,  but it still exists 'in a way '.

So the person who is 'destroyed ' still exists , 'in a way , but not as God intended: being full of Life ,Love ,Creativity  ,Joy etc . But like a dead thing , without the Light of God in them -  suffering without hope of being saved by anyone , without any resources to help themselves .

Edited August 7, 2016 by Thallasa

[RustyAngeL]

15 minutes ago, Thallasa said:

One can destroy something , but in a way it still exists ,  just not as it did before . It is broken , lost it's function , is in pièces , rotting ,  but it still exists 'in a way '.

So the person who is 'destroyed ' still exists , 'in a way , but not as God intended: being full of Life ,Love ,Creativity  ,Joy etc . But like a dead thing , without the Light of God in them -  suffering without hope of being saved by anyone , without any resources to help themselves .

They exist, their souls are very much alive.  They are more then aware of their soundings and, your right there is no hope and much suffering.

[brakelite]

13 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Brakelite

     Thanks for sharing the story about your username,wonderful,Praise Jesus!

I did try to explain "who so many" use this particular verse of Scripture to establish the definition of "eternal/everlasting" ,this is the one verse (both in Hebrew and Greek) the exact same word is used twice,once for the wicked & once for the Saved.....they are equal,the same,no different   English translations can vary but the earliest texts we have in the original languages remain the same,they are consistent......

To support & expound on defining that description,Ezra offered Rev !4:10-11,I cannot see how it could be an clearer

Fire,as we know it is all consuming,anything it touches burns until it is ashes,it exists no more......that makes perfect sense in the natural,our finite minds use reason & logic   God is Infinite,Eternal,Supernatural,our spirits will no longer be in this place....we will no longer live in the natural world as we know it,for now we see dimly

Moses looked at a burning bush ,it was engulfed by the Supernatural Fire of God,it did not burn up,turn to ash or die but I think it may be safe to say that Fire was hot!You yourself used the Tongues of Fire at Pentecost to support your Theory,I don't see how,the men we not harmed by the Supernatural Tongues of Fire,shouldn't their hair have caught on fire? These were Supernatural,These examples prove to me that the tormenting fires of hell with not burn up a soul until it ceases to exist & again,I am pretty sure it will get mighty hot.....I know I would not want to test it out

                                                                                                           With love-in Christ,Kwik

I agree with you re the eternality of both the fire and the punishment. My point is twofold however.

1. The fire, which we both agree in the supernatural does not consume, is in fact the very presence of God. It is that presence that enables life. Yet we would also both agree that the lake of fire comes FROM God, thus it is devoid of His pesence, devoid of His sutaining power of life, therefore whoever comes into contact with this fire, like the sinning Israelites were warned to stay away from the MT Sinai, will consume them in that context.

2. The eternal nature of the punishment, as revealed in that text of Matthews, refers to punishment, not punishing. The eternality of the punishment, that is the death of the sinner/soul/person, is eternal in the sense that it is permanent. There can be no resurrection. Our physical death is not permanent, therefore can not be described as everlasting, for the very reason that we shall be woken up...even the wicked...but the second death for the wicked, that is another story. Their second death is permanent.

[brakelite]

No-one has yet proved from scripture that sinners have immortality, that they may live forever being tormented. Please produce the scripture that explicitly declares that sinners are given the gift of immortal life. After all, there are many scriptures that promise immortality to the redeemed, yet not one for the wicked? Why is that? Add to that the many scriptures that explicitly teach that sinners die....why is that??? Do none of you detect any discrepancy here?

[brakelite]

12 hours ago, Thallasa said:

One can destroy something , but in a way it still exists ,  just not as it did before . It is broken , lost it's function , is in pièces , rotting ,  but it still exists 'in a way '.

So the person who is 'destroyed ' still exists , 'in a way , but not as God intended: being full of Life ,Love ,Creativity  ,Joy etc . But like a dead thing , without the Light of God in them -  suffering without hope of being saved by anyone , without any resources to help themselves .

That really is just opinion...it is not what scripture actually says...please, to promote and teach any concept of faith or doctrine, you need to supply a "thus saith the Lord" in support. Otherwise, it is but human philosophy...and man's reasoning and assumptions are never to be the basis for any doctrine. The reality is in fact the opposite...scripture teaches something quite in contrast with what you offer above....

Eccl. 9:10  Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

You see, no human being is immortal. How do I know this? Because the Bible says that only God is immortal. And here's the proof.... “King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen” (1 Timothy 6:15, 16) Now for anyone to refute that by saying that man's body is mortal, but his spirit or soul is immortal, must realize that God is Spirit. So when scripture says that only God is immortal, it is speaking of  God who is Spirit...God is the only immortal Spirit. Not man! Immortality is given as a gift...when is that? At the second coming, see  1 Corinthians 15. And note the number of times when Jesus stresses that this event takes place...

Joh 6:39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

And note, Jesus doesn't correct Martha here....
Joh 11:24  Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

The truth is that no sinner lives forever...because no sinner is given the gift of immortality. In fact, God even took steps to assure that would not happen...and He hasn't changed His mind.

Genesis 3:22 ¶  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23  Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24  So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

The thing God hates above everything else, is sin. Why? Because it separates man from God, and brings sorrow, pain, and suffering to everything it touches. It is patently ludicrous to believe that a holy righteous God would choose to immortalize sin and be a constant reminder of man's folly.

 

[Guest Thallasa]

1 hour ago, brakelite said:

That really is just opinion...it is not what scripture actually says...please, to promote and teach any concept of faith or doctrine, you need to supply a "thus saith the Lord" in support. Otherwise, it is but human philosophy...and man's reasoning and assumptions are never to be the basis for any doctrine. The reality is in fact the opposite...scripture teaches something quite in contrast with what you offer above....

Eccl. 9:10  Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

You see, no human being is immortal. How do I know this? Because the Bible says that only God is immortal. And here's the proof.... “King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen” (1 Timothy 6:15, 16) Now for anyone to refute that by saying that man's body is mortal, but his spirit or soul is immortal, must realize that God is Spirit. So when scripture says that only God is immortal, it is speaking of  God who is Spirit...God is the only immortal Spirit. Not man! Immortality is given as a gift...when is that? At the second coming, see  1 Corinthians 15. And note the number of times when Jesus stresses that this event takes place...

Joh 6:39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

And note, Jesus doesn't correct Martha here....
Joh 11:24  Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

The truth is that no sinner lives forever...because no sinner is given the gift of immortality. In fact, God even took steps to assure that would not happen...and He hasn't changed His mind.

Genesis 3:22 ¶  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23  Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24  So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

The thing God hates above everything else, is sin. Why? Because it separates man from God, and brings sorrow, pain, and suffering to everything it touches. It is patently ludicrous to believe that a holy righteous God would choose to immortalize sin and be a constant reminder of man's folly.

 

I should have captitalized Destroy ,because all I was doing was explaining that the word  Destroy can mean what I wrote and does not always mean annihilation .

.

As for reading your posts . You do not give an opinion  , but insist it is accepted . The point of the bible is, that God could have given us a clear simple rule book ,which He did in a way with the 10 commandments , but for the N.T., He knows that only those who recieve the Light of the H.S. will be able to comprehend the truth there ,  and no amount of reading the bible ,and quoting it can replace that ; No amount of bullying or repetition .

I know of people who have read the bible many times ,who are still not believers .As for quoting there was no need in this case .There have been threads of many many posts ,into the hundreds where people quote ,and at the end there is no universal agreement .

 

Edited August 8, 2016 by Thallasa