Jump to content
IGNORED

Characteristics of the Little Horn Daniel 7


brakelite

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  17
  • Topic Count:  50
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  3,727
  • Content Per Day:  1.05
  • Reputation:   2,305
  • Days Won:  5
  • Joined:  06/29/2014
  • Status:  Offline

brakelite

Sorry if I am doing your head in,...take your time to answer, and please just consider for the time being.

 

How can you not even consider Great Britain as being a great empire who arose after Rome?, and all the nations under the Commonwealth she currently controls? You shake your head?  Do not underestimate her power and influence. 

You also have not addressed the Balfour Declaration?  How can you so easily dismiss Great Britain's role in giving back Israel their state in 1948?  What if she turns around and says that Israel has not kept the orders of that declaration, and takes it back?  Would you then see a different beast than Rome regaining her power back?....A head being healed and given full authority from the dragon to attack the holy land, justified in her eyes through a piece of signed paper nearly 70 yrs ago?

 


Jeremiah 25:11   And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

Jeremiah 25:12   And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

Jeremiah 25:13   And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, even all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations.

 Jeremiah 25:29   For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.

Please do not put these 70 years back to the past.  That is just there to throw us off.  This is speaking of the end times.  All the nations are serving the King of Babylon,...the true king of Babylon, Satan.  The 70 yrs started when.......1948.   ....and where does the trouble begin?......

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  977
  • Content Per Day:  0.21
  • Reputation:   641
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  07/15/2011
  • Status:  Offline

Hi Sis. You're not doing my head in, no worries. I am enjoying this discussion. There were ten horns that grew from the 4th beast, right? Most historians agree that there were ten Barbarian tribes that invaded the territories vacated by Rome from the 4th to the 5th centuries. They were very confusing times, and for decades there was no way to fix any boundaries or national distinctions, such was Europe in those hectic and turbulent times...a state of flux. Historians do settle though on a date that the western empire as far as pagan empirical Rome is concerned, came to a close. 476AD. At that time, there were 10 kingdoms prior to the 3 horns being uprooted. Among those 10 were the Anglo-Saxons who had settled Britain, though the Celts remained strongly independent in Ireland and Scotland. Thus Great Britain was one of the ten...they could not be the little horn which was separate, and independent of the ten. The little horn was the eleventh horn...it rose up after 476, and witnessed, even assisted, in the uprooting of the 3 nations/tribes which today can be found no trace...the Ostrogoths, the Heruli, and the Vandals.

One more point. Prophecy in the OT centered upon national Israel. Not because they were a nation, but because of those faithful few within that nation  who were but a remnant and were fulfilling God's purpose.  Israel was Satan's most hated entity, the single most despised people because it was from Israel that the promised Messiah would come who Satan knew would in some way defeat him. It was Satan's sole purpose in his warfare against Israel to hinder, even stop if possible, the coming of the Messiah. He knew prophecy as well as any Pharisee. That is why he focused his attentions upon Israel, even more specifically the house of David. He failed. When Jesus finally was born in Bethlehem, Satan was there. He knew. He couldn't do anything personally, but he tried by instigating Herod to attempt to murder Jesus while still an infant. He failed there too. Then throughout Jesus' life, Satan did all he could to dissuade, tempt, challenge, anything he could think of that would induce Jesus to either give up, get impatient, use His powers for selfish purposes, lash out and avenge His honor, anything that would incite Jesus to sin. He failed in that as well. Praise God!! So what does the scripture tell us of Satan's warfare after Jesus returned to heaven to intercede on behalf of His people? Who was Satan's target then? Who was it that was the apple of God's eye? Who is it that today is heavens focus?  Who is it that Jesus is mediating for? Israel? No. No!

The church is now the focus of all heavens attention, and so is it the focus of Satan's attacks and hatred. Read the following very carefully. Ask yourself, who is this about? Who is the woman who was being protected by God in the wilderness?
 

Revelation 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 ¶  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15  And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16  And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
In Revelation 14:12 we see this description repeated.....  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. This remnant people are set in distinction to those who accept the mark of the beast. A remnant of whose seed? The woman. Who is the woman in NT prophecy ? Who is the bride of Christ? Who is the 'chaste virgin ' being now prepared for her Husband?  Who is Jesus coming back for and is thus the prime target of all of Satan's attacks?  Israel? No!

It is true that various nations/kingdoms are mentioned in prophecy, but not for their own sake, but because they would prove to be a threat to God's people. That is why the Chinese dynasties, though great, are not mentioned. Same for the great Central and South American nations of the Mayan and Aztec peoples. But Babylon, Media/Persia, Greece, and pagan Rome are mentioned, described, and prophesied of because they directly affected the people of God. And in the NT, be honest Sister, what specific entity from history was it that proved to be the single greatest threat against the people of God, and which grew from among the ten horns after 476 AD?  There can be only one answer. It is the very power that helped uproot the three tribes...the very power that still calls its leader by the same title as the Caesars, (pontifex maximus).... the very same that inherited and received its civil power from the 4th beast, pagan Rome thus becoming a church state union and rightly designated a kingdom....and the very same power that would speak great words against the Most High and persecute the saints of the Most High...yes, the RCC was the true church's most bitter enemy for over 1000 years, and as prophecy indicates, will still be there right up to the second coming. The OT prophecies centered on literal kingdoms. NT prophecies center and focus on spiritual kingdoms. In the OT, literal Babylon and literal Israel In the NT spiritual Babylon and spiritual Israel.
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  17
  • Topic Count:  50
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  3,727
  • Content Per Day:  1.05
  • Reputation:   2,305
  • Days Won:  5
  • Joined:  06/29/2014
  • Status:  Offline

On 25/09/2016 at 7:33 PM, brakelite said:

 There were ten horns that grew from the 4th beast, right?
 

Right.  Now go to Rev 13.  This 4th beast is also the 7th head.  Same one.

1st head - Egypt

2nd head - Assyria

3rd head - Babylon

4th head - Medo/Persia

5th head - Grecia

6th head  - Rome

7th head - end time beast with the 10 horns

8th head - Morphed from the 7th.  Same as the 7th head, not the 6th.

 Revelation 17:7   And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
 

Revelation 17:9   And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Revelation 17:10   And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

5 Fallen-  1. Egyptian empire, 2. Assyrian empire, 3. Babylon empire, 4. Medo-Persian Empire, 5, Greco Empire,.....all gone.

So the one that is during the days of this prophesy is Rome.  the 6th head (kingdom)

 

Revelation 13:3   And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.


Which head was healed?

The 4th beast in Daniel is the 7th head right? This is the kingdom of which the 10 horns come out of.  So this 7th head has to be the head which was wounded and healed, because this is the head that has been given all power in the latter time of their kingdom......just before their kingdom comes to an end.  Not the 6th head which was Rome, but the 7th head is the head which was wounded and healed....that one.

The 6th head does not morph into an eighth, but the 7th head does.  By your reasoning, the 6th head morphs into the 7th head which morphs into the 8th head.  That is not what the scriptures say.

 

 Daniel 8:23   And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 

When do the transgressors come to the full?  Doesn't evil have to grow to the maximum before it is cut down?  By your reasoning evil came to the full by 476AD?  By my understanding the little horn will stand up when Christ is ready to punish the world for all their evil, and lead the world into deception because they loved not the truth.  The little horn will finish them off. 

Evil is still rising, and has to come to the full, then this king, the little horn will stand up.
 

Quote

Most historians agree that there were ten Barbarian tribes that invaded the territories vacated by Rome from the 4th to the 5th centuries. They were very confusing times, and for decades there was no way to fix any boundaries or national distinctions, such was Europe in those hectic and turbulent times...a state of flux. Historians do settle though on a date that the western empire as far as pagan empirical Rome is concerned, came to a close. 476AD. At that time, there were 10 kingdoms prior to the 3 horns being uprooted. Among those 10 were the Anglo-Saxons who had settled Britain, though the Celts remained strongly independent in Ireland and Scotland. Thus Great Britain was one of the ten...they could not be the little horn which was separate, and independent of the ten. The little horn was the eleventh horn...it rose up after 476, and witnessed, even assisted, in the uprooting of the 3 nations/tribes which today can be found no trace...the Ostrogoths, the Heruli, and the Vandals.

This is all very interesting, and I cannot prove these things did not happen, but what I can prove is that this is not the interpretation of Daniel or Rev concerning the beast and little horn,....and cannot be forced into end time prophecy because of the many holes it leaves when comparing to scripture.

I cannot express enough, that all we need to interpret scripture, is scripture.  Going out of the box and paying too much attention to all these details will only hinder us and take us away from what "the Word" says, ignoring the many clues and facts given.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  977
  • Content Per Day:  0.21
  • Reputation:   641
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  07/15/2011
  • Status:  Offline

Sister, and once again you are leap frogging over nearly 2000 years of critical prophetic church history, involving both the persecuting power of the middle ages and the persecuted church of the wilderness of that same period, as if that whole history took God by surprise and didn't know it was going to happen, so was unprepared to warn His people about it. Futurism is blinding you to reality. I have said it before, I will say it again. The Antichrist is the Roman Catholic Church system. It is that church/state union that arose from the 4th beast, pagan Rome, was given its seat, power, and authority from that same power , inherited the same characteristics as those pagan empires that preceded her, and in its first phase lived for 1260 years...from 538AD (when the last of the 3 horns, the Ostrogoths, were defeated and thrown out of Rome giving the Bishops the right for the first time to vote independently a Pope) to 1798 AD. Her head wound was inflicted by General Berthier of Napoleon's republican army when he entered Rome, took the Pope captive, disbanded the college of Cardinals, and declared the papal states a republic. The church/secular state union that had dominated Europe for 1260 years died. The religious aspect continued of course, and that 'head wound' was healed in 1929 when Mussolini restored the Vatican giving back civil authority to the bishops of Rome. And that wound has been healing steadily ever since, to the point where today all national leaders throughout the world with few exceptions, visit the Pope regularly and have diplomatic relations with her....the apostate harlot committing adultery with the kings of the earth. To ignore those events in history and prognosticate over some future individual 'antichrist' to come is to be so deceived as to blindly lead people into ignoring from whence their real enemy is coming from. Again, futurism, your prophetic perspective, was invented by Catholic Jesuits for the very purpose of blinding the Protestant world to the truth. And you are perpetuating that lie.

Edited by brakelite
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  977
  • Content Per Day:  0.21
  • Reputation:   641
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  07/15/2011
  • Status:  Offline

I would like to here reveal where the futurit hermeneutic, so popular today within Christianity, came from.

Jesuit scholar: Francisco Ribera (1537-1591), from Salamanca, Spain. Ribera was a brilliant student who specialized in Latin, Greek and Hebrew. He received a doctorate in theology from the University of Salamanca and joined the Jesuit Order in 1570 when he was just 33 years old.
Before we analyze Ribera’s methods of prophetic interpretation we must underline that the Early Church fathers (not the New Testament writers!!) had certain futuristic elements in their eschatology. They almost unanimously believed that the “restrainer” of II Thessalonians 2 was the Roman Empire. They also believed that as soon as the Empire fell apart, a literal evil individual would arise to rule the world for three and a half literal years. (See, George Eldon Ladd, The Blessed Hope, pp. 28-31 where he presents, for example, the views of Lactantius and Hippolytus).
In all fairness to these Church Fathers, we must remember two things:

1) They did not expect the history of the world to last another 2000 years. They believed that the coming of Christ was in the foreseeable future.

2) Prophecy is usually not understood in its fulness until the times of fulfillment.
Jesus Himself explained to the disciples: “And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.” (John 14:29).
The Gospels reveal that the disciples of Jesus totally misunderstood and misapplied Bible prophecy before the resurrection. It was not until after the fulfillment of these prophecies that their hearts burned within them as Jesus opened unto them the Scriptures (Luke 24:32). History proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the meaning of the prophecies becomes clearer and clearer as the time of fulfillment draws near (see, II Peter 1:19).
The Early Church Fathers lived in the time of the fourth beast (Rome). The Empire had not yet crumbled into ten kingdoms. The little horn had not yet risen. The best they could do was guess about the identity of the Antichrist.
But the Protestant Reformers did not need to guess. They had the benefit of looking back at over one thousand years of church history and saw, with their own eyes, what the Early Church fathers could not have foreseen. By the time of the Reformers, the Roman Empire had crumbled into ten kingdoms
and an evil spiritual empire (Papal Rome) had risen among these kingdoms to rule over them. Thus, the Reformers had the benefit of history to help them identify the little horn, the Man of Sin, the Beast, the Harlot and the abomination of desolation.
Now, back to Ribera. This Jesuit scholar capitalized on the incomplete views of the Early Church fathers. In 1590 he published a 500-page commentary on the Apocalypse where he expounded the prophecies of Revelation using the literalistic hermeneutic of futurism. The main tenets of his eschatology are described by Froom:
“Ribera assigned the first few chapters of the Apocalypse to ancient Rome, in John’s own time; the rest he restricted to a literal three and a half years reign of an infidel Antichrist, who would bitterly oppose and blaspheme the saints just before the second advent. He taught that Antichrist would be a single individual, who would rebuild the temple in Jerusalem, abolish the Christian religion, deny Christ, be received by the Jews, pretend to be God, and conquer the world–and all in this brief space of three and onehalf years!” (Froom, PFF, II, pp. 489-490, ).
Ribera was more of a writer than a lecturer. He also died at the early age of 54. For these reasons, Ribera’s views needed a shrewd and articulate champion to carry his message far and wide. The champion was found and his name was Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621).
Bellarmine was an Italian cardinal and also one of the ablest Jesuit
controversialists. He was a powerful speaker and lectured to large audiences. Bellarmine picked up where Ribera left off. In fact, Bellarmine made it his special project to spread the literalistic hermeneutic of futurism with unabated passion.
“He insisted that the prophecies concerning Antichrist in Daniel, Paul, and John, had no application to the papal power. This formed the third part of his Disputationes de Controversiis Christianae Fidei Adversus Huius Temporis Haereticos [Polemic Lectures Concerning the Disputed Points of Christian Belief Against the Heretics of This Time], published between 1581 and 1593. This was the most detailed apology of the Catholic faith ever produced, and became the arsenal for all future defenders and expositors. It called forth a host of counter-writings from Protestant leaders, who considered him their greatest adversary.” (Froom, PFF, II, p. 495).
Though the basics of Bellarmine’s prophetic views were identical to Ribera’s, he “perfected”, “refined” and amplified many of the details. And he crusaded in favor of the literalistic futurist view and against the Protestants with an evangelistic zeal worthy of admiration!
Bellarmine was an expert at turning the Reformers against themselves. For example, he wondered why Luther, who taught that his views were based on Scripture alone, doubted the canonicity of the book of Revelation. In contrast, Bellarmine appeared to be the defender of the book of Revelation as part of the New Testament canon.
He also took painstaking efforts to document the fact that the Reformers could not even agree among themselves as to when the prophetic periods
began and ended. For example, some Protestants dated the beginning of the dominion of the Antichrist from the fall of Rome (400 A. D.). Others dated it to 600 A. D., when Pope Gregory the Great took the papal throne, and still others dated it to somewhere between 200 and 773, 1,000, or even 1,200. Bellarmine contended that if the Reformers could not agree on the time period of Antichrist’s dominion, neither could they be trusted to identify who he was. Bellarmine also documented that the Early Church fathers (not the New Testament writers!!) taught an individual Antichrist who would rule for a literal three and a half year period. In this way he tried to prove that his view was the original belief of the Early Church. He also showed that each of the Reformers interpreted Daniel and Revelation’s symbols differently. In this way he worked to undermine their views regarding the identity of the Antichrist.
In chapter five of his work, Bellarmine employed an argument which would later be picked up by Protestants. There, Bellarmine rewrote history, saying that the Roman Empire had never been divided according to the specifications of the prophecy and therefore, Antichrist could not have come yet. According to Bellarmine, the complete desolation of the Roman Empire must come before the advent of the Antichrist, and this had not yet taken place. Later on we will see that a host of Protestant writers picked up this argument and “ran with it”.
The essence of Bellarmine’s argument is that the Papacy cannot be the Antichrist for three reasons:

  1. The Antichrist prophecies call for an individual but the Papacy is a system.
  2. The Antichrist time periods demand a literal three and one half years, but the Papacy has existed for centuries.
  3. Antichrist is to sit in the Jerusalem Temple, but the popes are ruling in Rome.

Let’s allow Bellarmine to tell us these things in his own words:
“For all Catholics think thus that the Antichrist will be one certain man; but all heretics teach. . . that Antichrist is expressly declared to be not a single person, but an individual throne or absolute kingdom, and apostate seat of those who rule over the church.”
(Quoted in Froom, PFF, II, p. 500).
“Antichrist will not reign except for three years and a half. But the Pope has now reigned spiritually in the church more than 1500 years; nor can anyone be pointed out who has been accepted for Antichrist, who has ruled exactly three and one-half years; therefore the Pope is not Antichrist. Then Antichrist has not yet come.  (Quoted in Froom, PFF, II, p. 502).
“The Pope is not antichrist since indeed his throne is not in Jerusalem, nor in the temple of Solomon; surely it is credible that from the year 600, no Roman pontiff has ever been in Jerusalem.”
(Quoted in Froom, PFF, II, p. 502).
It is abundantly clear that Bellarmine applied the hermeneutic of a stringent literalism in his exposition of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. As we shall see later, this literalistic hermeneutic was picked up by conservative Protestants and taken to ridiculous extremes. But now we must get back to our story of futurism’s “incredible journey.”
For over 150 years after Ribera and Bellarmine, Protestantism remained true to its prophetic principles. But then there was a shift, gentle at first and then with a vengeance!! In the early 19th century some Protestant expositors began to make overtures to Rome. This can be seen most clearly in the Oxford Tractarian Movement of the Anglican Church in England. Let’s allow Froom to describe the movement toward Rome:
“But now, in the nineteenth century in Britain, the Futurist concept was again revived, by Samuel Maitland, James Todd, William Burgh, John Darby of the Plymouth Brethren, and the renowned John Henry Newman.” (Froom, PFF, III, p. 656).
It all started with Samuel Maitland who in 1826 published a series of pamphlets entitled, Enquiries. Froom states that “In these Maitland had militantly assailed the whole Protestant application to the Roman Papacy of the symbols of the little horn, Daniel’s fourth beast, the Apocalyptic Beast, and Babylon–holding that a personal and avowedly infidel antichrist was meant, and asserting that the prophetic days of its dominance were simply literal days.” (Froom, PFF, III, p. 657).
Maitland’s views were shared by James Todd (1805-1869) and William Burgh (1800-1866)[both were clergymen in the Church of England]. These views would eventually form the foundation for John Henry Newman’s return to Rome.
Notice the following words from William Burgh: “First that ‘THE MAN OF SIN’ is not popery appears from the necessity that this chapter be understood of an individual, and not of a power or office vested in numbers or held by succession.” (William Burgh, Lectures on the Second Advent [second edition], p. 63).
“I would say that an individual is intended–one person whose pretensions live and die with himself. . .” [don’t forget these last words which will later be picked up verbatim by Dave Hunt]
(William Burgh, Lectures on the Second Advent, pp. 64, 65).
“Secondly, the nature of these same acts and pretensions prove that the ‘man of sin’ is not the Pope.” (William Burgh, Lectures on the Second Advent, p. 65).
James H. Todd was likewise categorical in his denial of the Papacy as the Antichrist. His lectures for 1838 were later published as Discourses on the Prophecies Relating to Antichrist in the Writings of Daniel and St. Paul. The book was dedicated to Samuel Maitland.
The basic tenets of Todd’s concept are:

  1. Antichrist will be an individual who will appear at the end of the world just before the second coming of Christ.
  2. The evil deeds of the Antichrist will be connected with the Jews rather than the Gentiles. In fact, the Antichrist will sit in a rebuilt Jerusalem Temple.
  3. His period of rule will be for 1260 literal days.
  4. The fourth kingdom of Daniel 7 is not the Roman Empire and the horns are not fulfilled in the Roman Empire.

In other words, the fourth kingdom will at some future period be established upon the earth. (Froom, PFF, III, p. 661).
Todd went so far as to say that “Romanism [is] not properly an apostacy from the faith”. He also states: “. . . the Errors of Romanism do not amount to Apostasy.”
And amazingly, he affirms: “The Church of Rome [is] a true Christian Church.” (James H. Todd, Discourses on the Prophecies Relating to Antichrist in the Writings of Daniel and St. Paul, pp. xv, 259-267, 320-321, 322-323).
Protestants of the Church of England were now applying the futuristic and literalistic hermeneutic they had acquired from the Society of Jesus!! No wonder they could no longer detect the Papacy as the predicted Antichrist of Bible prophecy.

The concepts of Todd and Burgh were foundational to what has become known as the Oxford Tractarian Movement. To make a long story short, this movement lasted from 1833-1845. [Don’t let the dates pass you by. During the identical time frame but on the other side of the Atlantic, the Millerite Movement was going full steam ahead].
During this period a series of ninety Tracts for the Times were prepared with the express purpose of “deprotestantizing” the Church of England. The principal writers were Newman, Pusey, Keble, Froude and Williams. These men seized upon the writings of Maitland, Burgh and Todd to absolve the Papacy from the stigma of being called the Antichrist. Protestants were openly encouraged to return to Catholicism and to accept the Bishop of Rome as the legitimate leader of the Christian world.
The movement toward Rome was driven by the literalistic prophetic principles of futurism. If the Papacy was not the predicted Antichrist, then what was to keep Protestantism from reuniting with Rome? It was in this way that the counterfeit hermeneutic of literalistic futurism led to an ecumenical spirit [as will happen at the end as well]. As the historicist hermeneutic had given Protestantism its driving force and the courage to separate from Rome, so futurism stalled the progress of Protestantism and led it to seek a reunion with Rome. And this is rapidly accelerating as we speak.
The climax of the Oxford Movement came when John Henry Newman (1801-1890) defected from the Church of England and joined the Roman Catholic Church. He had been one of the prime movers of this movement. Twenty nine of the 90 tracts were composed by Newman. Though he had previously spoken harsh words against the Papacy, in 1843 he “published a retraction of all the hard sayings he had formerly said against Rome.” Finally, in 1845 he was received into the Roman communion, leaving Oxford for Rome where, in 1846, he was ordained a priest and later given a D. D. degree by the pope.
In 1847 he returned to England, where he continued to reside. In 1854 Newman was called to Dublin as rector of the newly established Catholic University, and in 1879 he was given the cardinal’s hat.

Thus todays futurist hermeneutic which in the 16th century absolved the Papacy of its Antichrist title through the work of her Jesuits, is accomplshing more than thier wildest dreams could have imagined by being the catalyst for the return of Protestants to Rome. Remember recently the cheers that went up as the late Anglican Bishop and friend of Francis  declared to many Protestant pentecostals, "the protest is over"? If those church leaders had believed and understood scripture as the reformers believed and taught, they would not have cheered, and they, and you, would not be as deceived as you are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  17
  • Topic Count:  50
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  3,727
  • Content Per Day:  1.05
  • Reputation:   2,305
  • Days Won:  5
  • Joined:  06/29/2014
  • Status:  Offline

brakelite

You have not addressed my rebuttals?

You are trying to overwhelm us with mountains of history.  Please address my rebuttals short and clear.

We can start with this one;

Daniel 8:23   And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Please explain?

 




 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  17
  • Topic Count:  50
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  3,727
  • Content Per Day:  1.05
  • Reputation:   2,305
  • Days Won:  5
  • Joined:  06/29/2014
  • Status:  Offline

brakelite

The False Prophet, little horn will be of Jewish blood.

 Ezekiel 21:25   And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,

  Ezekiel 21:26   Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.

  Ezekiel 21:27   I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.

 

Nahum 1:11   There is one come out of thee, that imagineth evil against the LORD, a wicked counsellor.

Please explain if your interpretation fits these scriptures?

 Nahum 1:12   Thus saith the LORD; Though they be quiet, and likewise many, yet thus shall they be cut down, when he shall pass through. Though I have afflicted thee, I will afflict thee no more.

(Israel)

 Nahum 1:15   Behold upon the mountains the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace! O Judah, keep thy solemn feasts, perform thy vows: for the wicked shall no more pass through thee; he is utterly cut off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  977
  • Content Per Day:  0.21
  • Reputation:   641
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  07/15/2011
  • Status:  Offline

On 28/09/2016 at 9:13 AM, Sister said:

brakelite

You have not addressed my rebuttals?

You are trying to overwhelm us with mountains of history.  Please address my rebuttals short and clear.

We can start with this one;

Daniel 8:23   And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Please explain?

 




 

Your 'rebuttals' Sister are not rebuttals at all, but merely a clairvoyants view of the future. You are comparing an imagined future making that to fit scripture, against an established recorded history that matches scripture. You will find that at the end of my last article , you will have to choose between continuing to believe in an imaginary future antichrist who will in some way fulfill all the characteristics I have been discussing here, or the RCC who has already fulfilled all the criteria demanded of it in scripture. BTW, there are certain characteristics of the Antichrist that a future entity cannot fulfill. One, growing out of the pagan Roman empire. Two, uprooting 3 of the horns that grew from that empire. And three, deceiving the church into joining with him. All these 3 the RCC has accomplished. And more.

As to Daniel 8:23. Why have you not included verses 24,25? They all pertain to the same power, whoever it is. Now think about it. At the latter time of whose kingdom? Who is the 'their' of verse 23? Surely the 4 divisions of Greece of the previous verse right? Who came to rise toward the end of the reign of the 4 Grecian kings, Lysymachus, Ptolemy, Cassander, and Seleucis? Was it not Rome? It most assuredly could not be Antiochus Epiphanes, because he was just one minor king in the Seleucid line. He was not mighty, his father, Antiochus the Great, was mightier than he. (There are many other reasons why Antiochus Epiphanes cannot be the Antichrist). So who is it that met the criteria of the following 3 verses? There is much that could be discussed, but I will limit myself to just verse 25. He stood up against the Prince of princes (Christ Himself) but was broken without hand.

First, the power that stood against Christ was pagan Rome. Second, pagan Rome was not conquered outright by any one power of man. In fact, as revealed in the statue of Daniel 2, and in several places in Daniel 7, pagan Rome continues to exist in another form all the way down through time until the second coming. The iron of pagan Rome's legs in the statue continued in a miry clay loose union until destroyed by Christ. It is that union, in its most matured form, which is the Antichrist of the last days, Babylon the Great. That power spoken of in verses 23-25, is the same power spoken of in verses 9-12. The little horn which grew from the one of the 4. One can see the change in the formation of the statue from iron to an iron/clay mix repeated in verses 9 and 10 of Daniel 8. The horn waxed exceeding great on a horizontal plane in verse 9, but in verse 10 takes on a vertical direction, against heaven. This is the change from a purely pagan secular entity, to a pseudo Christian entity , a union of church and state.

Now, I will continue with the next characteristic, I suppose #7C.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  977
  • Content Per Day:  0.21
  • Reputation:   641
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  07/15/2011
  • Status:  Offline

But now we must take a look at another movement in Great Britain which was destined to derail the Protestant prophetic hermeneutic.
In 1825 a small group of men, dissatisfied with the spiritual condition of the Protestant Church in Ireland, met in Dublin to spiritually strengthen one another. Soon other groups were formed in Ireland and in England. The most famous of these was the one in Plymouth.
This group came to be known as the Plymouth Brethren. Among the notables in these fellowships were Edward Irving, Dr. S. P. Tregelles and John Nelson Darby (who joined in 1827). At some point during this time, Edward Irving heard some mysterious utterances in an unknown tongue telling him that there was going to be a secret rapture of the church before the visible coming of Jesus.
This was a new concept in the incredible journey of futurism. Futurists themselves will admit that this idea was alien to the Christian church until the 19th century. Dr. S. P. Tregelles, who, as we have noted, for some time belonged to the Plymouth Brethren movement but later abandoned it describes Irving’s experience:
“I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that there would be a secret rapture of the Church at a secret coming, until this was given forth as an utterance in Mr. Irving’s church, from what was there received as being the Voice of the Spirit. But whether anyone ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology arose. It came not from Holy Scripture, but from that which falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God.” (S. P. Tregelles, The Hope of Christ’s Second Coming, first published in 1864, and now available at Ambassadors for Christ, Los Angeles, California).
From 1830 onward, a series of conferences were held at Powerscourt Castle in Ireland. We know that Edward Irving attended some of these as did John Nelson Darby and other key leaders of the Plymouth Brethren. At these meetings literalistic futurism became the prophetic methodology of choice and the idea of the secret rapture was adopted. The views established at these conferences soon spread like grassfire and penetrated other denominations.
We must say a few words about John Nelson Darby. He was born in Ireland in 1800 and died in 1882. He was a brilliant law student at
Westminster Trinity College.
Darby soon broke with the Church of England and embraced literalistic futurism with a vengeance. Undoubtedly, one of the main reasons why he did not discern the Papacy as the Antichrist was his total disdain for history. He once remarked: “I do not want history to tell me Nineveh or Babylon is ruined or Jerusalem in the hands of the Gentiles. I do not admit history to be, in any sense, necessary to the understanding of prophecy.”  Do not make the same mistake! (Quoted in, Oswald T. Allis, Prophecy and the Church [Philadelphia: The Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company], 1977, p. 26). Jesus Himself would disagree with Darby regarding an understanding of history in order to understand prophecy. John 14:29  And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. Thus history is essential to understanding prophecy. 

In the historicist method, a knowledge of history is of critical importance because it provides the reference point for the understanding of prophecy. But in futurism, an understanding of history is superfluous.
It is of great importance to realize that between 1859 and 1874, Darby made six trips to the United States where he was warmly welcomed and his views were eagerly adopted.
Darby’s writings, however, would have been forgotten had it not been for Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843-1921). Scofield was converted in 1879 and, though he had no theological training, he was ordained a Congregationalist minister three years later. At this time, Darby’s books were gathering dust in the few libraries where they could be found. But when Scofield discovered them, he came up with the idea of incorporating Darby’s futuristic ideas into a series of footnotes in the King James Bible. Thus in 1909, the famous Scofield Reference Bible was born. Soon, the notes were considered as inspired as the Bible itself. Even today, this is the Bible of choice among Protestants who uphold a futurist
outlook of Bible prophecy.
Before we move on to speak of the baleful influence of futurism upon contemporary Protestantism, it would be well to quote various scholars who trace the origins of preterism and futurism to Alcazar and Ribera. We will begin with George Eldon Ladd:
“It would probably come as a shock to many modern futurists to be told that the first scholar in relatively modern times who returned to the patristic futuristic interpretation was a Spanish Jesuit named Ribera. In 1590 Ribera published a commentary on the Revelation as a counter-interpretation to the prevailing view among Protestants which identified the Papacy with the Antichrist. Ribera applied all of Revelation but the earliest chapters to the end time rather than to the history of the Church. Antichrist would be a single evil person who would be received by the Jews and would rebuild Jerusalem, abolish Christianity, deny Christ, persecute the Church and rule the world for three and a half years.” (George Eldon Ladd, The Blessed Hope, Grand Rapids: Eerdman’s, 1972, p. 37).
Next we will quote Joseph Tanner: “ So great a hold did the conviction that the Papacy was the Antichrist gain upon the minds of men, that Rome at last saw she must bestir herself, and try, by putting forth other systems of interpretation, to counteract the identification of the Papacy with the Antichrist. Accordingly, towards the close of the century of the Reformation two of her most learned doctors set themselves to the task, each endeavoring by different means to accomplish the same end, namely, that of diverting men’s minds from perceiving the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Antichrist in the Papal system.
The Jesuit Alcasar devoted himself to bring into prominence the Preterist method of interpretation, which we have already briefly noticed, and thus endeavored to show that the prophecies of Antichrist were fulfilled before the Popes ever ruled at Rome, and therefore could not apply to the Papacy. On the other hand the Jesuit Ribera tried to set aside the application of these prophecies to the Papal Power by bringing out the Futurist system, which asserts that these prophecies refer properly not to the career of the Papacy, but to that of some future supernatural individual, who is yet to appear, and to continue in power for three and a half years.” (Joseph Tanner, Daniel and the Revelation, [London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1898], pp. 16, 17).
Dean Henry Alford in the “Prolegomena” of his Greek Testament, declares: “The founder of this system [Futurist] in modern times. . . appears to have been the Jesuit Ribera, about A. D. 1580.” (Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers, vol. 2, part 2, p. 351).
Alford also states: “The Preterist view found no favour, and was hardly so much as thought of, in the times of primitive Christianity. . . The view is said to have been first promulgated in any thing like completeness by the Jesuit Alcasar. . . in 1614.” (Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers, vol. 2, part 2, pp. 348, 349).
Even the Roman Catholic, G. S. Hitchcock, states: “The Futuristic School, founded by the Jesuit Ribera in 1591, looks for Antichrist, Babylon and a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, at the end of the Christian Dispensation. . . The Praeterist School, founded by the Jesuit Alcasar in 1614, explains the Revelation by the Fall of Jerusalem, or by the fall of Pagan Rome in 410 A. D.” (G. S. Hitchcock, The Beasts and the Little Horn, p. 7).
Well has Tanner remarked: “It is a matter for deep regret that those who hold and advocate the futurist system at the present day, Protestants as they are for the most part, are thus really playing into the hands of Rome, and helping to screen the Papacy from detection as the Antichrist.
It has been well said that ‘Futurism tends to obliterate the brand put by the Holy Spirit upon Popery.’ More especially is this to be deplored at a time when the Papal Antichrist seems to be making an expiring effort to regain his former hold on men’s minds.
” (Joseph Tanner, Daniel and the Revelation, [London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1898], p. 17). Consider the above in light of the Pope's recent visit to the American Congress and the UN, where he unashamedly promoted himself as the only viable candidate with the popular mandate to head the NWO.

And what about conservative Protestantism today? The fact is that they have not only swallowed these futuristic views hook, line and sinker, but they have swallowed the fishing pole and fisherman as well!! In fact, they have taken the literalistic hermeneutic of futurism so far that it borders on the ridiculous.
Evangelicals, Baptists, Pentecostals and other born-again Christians have proliferated futurism around the globe. This phenomenal growth has been due to four main factors:

  1. The influence of the Schofield Reference Bible. This annotated Bible provides a futuristic and literalistic interpretation of the little horn of Daniel 7 seeing it as a future individual world dictator who will rule the world for three and a half literal years from a rebuilt Jerusalem temple. On the other hand, this same Bible manifests a touch of preterism by interpreting the little horn of Daniel 8 as a symbol of Antiochus Epiphanes [see the footnotes in the Scofield Reference Bible, pp. 909, 910].
  2. The proliferation of television evangelists. For example, Jack Van Impe showed his unabashed admiration for Pope John Paul II by repeatedly stating on his television program: “What a man!!”
  3. A plethora of both fiction and “ non-fiction” books. For example, Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins have written a series of Christian thrillers which explore the last days. The titles tell it all: Left Behind: A Novel ofthe Earth’s Last Days; Tribulation Force: The Continuing Drama of Those Left Behind; Nicolae: The Rise of Antichrist; Soul Harvest: The World Takes Sides; Appollyon: The Destroyer is Unleashed; Assassins: Assignment: Jerusalem, Target: Antichrist. This series has sold over 10 million copies and was  on the New York Times best seller list for months!! Jenkins states: “The purpose was to encourage the church and to persuade unbelievers. We have found that people are reading the Bible again because of it and many have become believers” (The Costco Connection, “Arts and Entertainment”, March 2000, p. 49). The question is: Believers in what? Are people reading the Bible through the futurist eyeglasses of these novels? Even more amazing is the comment made by LaHaye: “I’m hearing from church pastors all over the world (the series has been published in at least 14 languages) and they’re telling me that the books are the best evangelistic tools they’ve ever seen. It’s gratifying to see so much interest in this story because, of any of the major world religions, Christianity has the most exciting story to tell about the future.” (The Costco Connection, “Arts and Entertainment”, March 2000, p. 49). Here LaHaye lauds the world-wide evangelistic thrust of futurism through the message of these books. Thus, futurism is being exported to every nation, kindred, tongue and people!!
  4. The multiplication of thriller movies such as The Omega Code, and Left Behind. I have personally seen The Omega Code. It is pure, untarnished, unvarnished futurism and literalism. The number of proponents of the futuristic scenario is legion. Among the main prognosticators are: Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jerry Jenkins, Grant Jeffrey, John Walvoord, John Hagee, Benny Hinn, Jack Van Impe, Jack LeLonde, Dave Hunt, David Jeremiah, Zola Levitt, Arno Froese, Pat Robertson, Randall Price, Dwight Pentecost and ad infinitum.

These recent proponents of futurism have outdone by far their forefathers. As an example, we will refer to Grant Jeffrey’s book The Signature of God: The Handwriting of God. Jeffrey claims to have cracked a secret Bible prophecy code by using the Hebrew numbering system.
He claims to have found, among other things, the following specific predictions in this secret code: The death of Princess Di, the plague of AIDS, the assassination of Franz Joseph I of Austria, the peace process of Israel and the PLO, the assassination of Yitzak Rabbin, the Gulf War including the specific names of America, George Bush, General Schwartzkoff, Scud-B Missile, Russia, etc. He also claims to have found predictions of the Oklahoma City bombing including the specific names, Timothy McVeigh and Oklahoma. Amazingly, he even claims to have found “day 19, and 9th hour” the precise day and hour of the explosion. Apart from the fact that the Bible is not interested in trivialities such as this, I find it amazing that Jeffrey thinks he is able to find all these hidden, cryptic, secret, veiled, subliminal messages but at the same time has not been able to figure out something as clear and simple as, which is the right day of the week to go to church!!
Dave Hunt presents an interesting case. He has written two scathing books denouncing the Roman Catholic Papacy as the harlot of Revelation 17 (Global Peace, A Woman Rides the Beast).
For example, he makes the following astounding statement: “Some suggest that the Vatican will move to Babylon in Iraq when it is rebuilt. But why should it? The Vatican has been fulfilling John’s vision from its location in Rome for the past 15 centuries. Moreover, we have shown the connection to ancient Babylon which the Vatican has maintained down through history in the paganized Christianity it has promulgated. As for ancient Babylon itself, it wasn’t even in existence during the past 2300 years ‘to reign over the kings of the earth.’ Babylon lay in ruins while pagan Rome and later Catholic Rome, the new Babylon, was indeed reigning over kings.” (Dave Hunt, A Woman Rides the Beast, p. 84). So much for consistent literalism! What hermeneutic allows Hunt to see in literal Babylon a symbol of a worldwide apostate Christian Roman Catholicism and yet to not see in literal Jerusalem a symbol of God’s faithful worldwide Christian church?
Hunt has also castigated Protestants for betraying the Reformation when they signed the joint declaration: Evangelicals and Catholics Together. Yet he still remains a futurist at heart. For him, Daniel seven’s little horn is a literal person who in the future will rule three and a half literal
years during the Tribulation. He believes this horn will oppress the literal Jews from a rebuilt literal Jerusalem Temple.
Regarding Daniel 2, Hunt comments: “He [Daniel] explained that Nebuchadnezzar, represented by the head of gold, was the ruler of the first world empire. The three other parts of the image, made of silver, brass, and iron, foreshadowed three more world empires that would follow Babylon as its successors. In a later vision Daniel would be given the name of the second world empire, Medo-Persia, and details concerning the third kingdom which clearly identified it as the Grecian empire. The fourth world empire, of course, would be Rome. That much is history.” (Dave Hunt, Global Peace, p. 68).
Up to this point, Hunt sounds like a genuine historicist. But wait, there is more! Referring to the ten toes, Hunt then affirms: “Obviously, what the
toes represent has not yet come to pass. God’s kingdom was not established ‘in the days of these [ten] kings.’” (Dave Hunt, Global Peace, p. 69).
What he says next is simply amazing: “Furthermore, the Antichrist never appeared to take the reins of the ancient Roman Empire.” (Dave Hunt, Global Peace, p. 69).
What Hunt has done is sever the feet from the legs. He has created a gap of over 1500 years between the legs [the Roman Empire] and the toes [the divisions of the Roman Empire]. Why is he not able to see that Rome was divided by the Barbarian invasions and that, shortly thereafter, the
Papacy arose to govern in what had been the Roman Empire?
The fact is that the literalistic hermeneutic of futurism has blinded Hunt and led him to shield the Papacy from her baleful work during the Middle Ages. The gap he has left between the legs and the toes is the hiding place for the REAL ANTICHRIST!! Do not let this literal hermeneutic blind you!
Inexcusably, Hunt states: “The Reformers and their creeds were unanimous in identifying each pope as the Antichrist. Scripture, however, does not support that claim. The Antichrist is a unique individual without predecessors or successors.” (Dave Hunt, Global Peace, p. 47)

Thus, Hunt sides with Ribera, Newman, and Lacunza while he betrays the Reformation. He is saying that Ribera was right and Luther was wrong! How can he complain about the apostasy of Protestantism and then turn around and employ the prophetic method of Apostate Protestantism? No
wonder Protestant leaders signed the ecumenical document, Evangelicals and Catholics Together. No wonder that Lutheran and Catholic theologians have signed a Joint Declaration on Righteousness by Faith. And next year, 2017, Pope Francis meets in Sweden with Lutheran leaders to celebrate the 500th anniversary of the reformation, that many Protestant leaders have declared is now over! How blind is today's church!!!!
Through preterism, Satan has laid hold of the liberal wing of Protestantism. Through futurism he has laid hold of the conservative wing. Although these two systems appear to be opposites, they really have several striking similarities and they both meet in the abyss of satanic deception.
In both systems, Antichrist is understood as a literal blasphemous individual. Both see this individual as a desecrator of the literal Jewish Temple for three and a half literal years. The only difference is that, in the case of preterism this person was Antiochus Epiphanes, while in the case of futurism it will be an individual who has not yet appeared.
But the most notable similarity is that both systems derived their hermeneutical methodology from Papal Jesuit theologians and both systems shield the Papacy from being detected as the great Antichrist of Scripture!! By shifting the fulfillment of prophecy backwards or forwards, these prophetic systems have attempted to change God’s prophetic times.
But now we must ask some very serious questions. Why did Protestantism first adopt futurism in Great Britain? Why not in Germany or France or, for that matter, in any other European country? And why in the 1830’s? Why did Lacunza’s writings find their way to England and not to another country in Europe? Why was Lacunza’s book translated into English by one of the Plymouth Brethren in 1833?
The answers to these questions are not hard to find. The greatest number of immigrants into the United States in the 1830’s and 1840’s were from Great Britain. What better way for Satan to transplant futurism to the United States than to do it from Great Britain? It is easy to see now, why this whole apostasy from historicism to futurism took place in England in the 1830’s. Satan wanted to transplant futurism from England to the New World!!
Even at this early stage, he was laying the groundwork for the United States to become the champion of futurism and to make an image to the beast!! Remarkably, on the other side of the Atlantic, William Miller and his co-workers were expounding the same prophecies of Daniel and
Revelation using a historicist hermeneutic–and this, in the same decade of the 1830’s!! In this way, the battle lines were being drawn. Satan was preparing to import futurism into United States at the same time that God was empowering the Millerites to explain the prophecies from a historicist perspective.
Which system was destined to win on the American continent? On the surface, it would appear that futurism has gained the upper hand. But we are reminded that in the end, God’s historicist perspective will prevail because He controls “the times”. No matter how much apostate Protestantism may try to exalt and disperse its prophetic scenario, all will come crashing down because God is the arbiter of history, and prophecy will fulfill as He has predetermined.
By employing the preterist and futurist prophetic principles of the Roman Catholic Church, Protestants have made an image to the beast. Furthermore, they have become the False Prophet because they speak the prophetic message which they have derived from the beast.
There is a close relationship between Daniel 7:25, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:11-18 and Revelation 14:6-12. In Daniel 7:25 the little horn thinks it can change two things: the times and the law. God’s response to this is to raise up a remnant church (after the 1260 years) which will restore what the little horn attempted to change. That is, they will have a true prophet in their midst to explain and restore the true meaning of the times; and they will keep the commandments of God, including the one which the little horn claimed to have changed (Revelation 12:17; 19:10; 22:8,9).
The beast will not take this restoration hands down. It will react in the end-time by imposing the mark of the beast (the change in the law) and by raising up the false prophet ( the change in the times). But, as always, God will speak the last word. The three angels’ messages will be proclaimed to every nation, kindred, tongue and people (Revelation 14:6). These will call the world to keep the Sabbath, and resist the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-12). They will also call the world to refuse the message of the beast and his false prophet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  17
  • Topic Count:  50
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  3,727
  • Content Per Day:  1.05
  • Reputation:   2,305
  • Days Won:  5
  • Joined:  06/29/2014
  • Status:  Offline

On 06/10/2016 at 8:49 AM, brakelite said:

Your 'rebuttals' Sister are not rebuttals at all, but merely a clairvoyants view of the future. You are comparing an imagined future making that to fit scripture, against an established recorded history that matches scripture.

brakelite

Something is blocking you? 

Think again about what you just said?

I would hardly call scripture as a clairvoyants view of the future?  I have quoted what is written, and not some vision given only to me.

Daniel 8:23   And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

This clearly has not happened back then.  The trangressors did not come to the full 1500 yrs or so?  You are saying the opposite to scripture! 

 

This is when the trangressors come to the full;

 Revelation 18:2   And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

  Revelation 18:3   For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

  Revelation 18:4   And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

  Revelation 18:5   For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

You have been sidetracked and bogged down with all this history.  It does not fit Dan 8:23, nor other scriptures relating.  Your interpretation has to fit scripture and not the other way around.  Your interpretation contradicts the facts laid out by the written word.  Your history might be correct, but not your interpretation of scripture.

 

One of the beauty's of prophecy is that it goes all the way to the end....to the coming and beyond.  Yes many prophesies have already been fulfilled, but this little horn is the Son of Perdition/False Prophet who will stand up WHEN THE TRANSGRESSORS HAVE COME TO THE FULL, just before the 7 angels with the 7 plagues sound.  This is what everything from the beginning of time leads to - the end result.  A mass deception leading all the ungodly into hell, and the little horn is the man for this job.  All those who have not loved the truth will be taken by him. All in Babylon will be made to drink of this cup. This is a BIG THING about to HAPPEN.

And the other beauty is that we are given ample warning before something occurs.  We are forewarned even to the end. That's us today also. Rev matches Daniel, so speaking of the same thing.  You say this happened after 470AD.  The bible only started to spread to the gentiles in the 1600's.  Where's the forewarning then?  Is that fair?  Fulfill first then warn later?  That's not the way God operates.

If it has already happened, then what is to come?  Can you please be more clear?  Was revelation 13 a book of the past before the gospels came to the gentiles?

 Mark 13:10   And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

 Mark 13:22   For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

 Mark 13:23   But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

 

Edited by Sister
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...