Purgatory Posits

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There are no passages in the Bible that clearly and without ambiguity, reveal the existence of a purgatory. So in order to justify their belief in the existence of one, posits point to passages that, although they don't actually prove without a shadow of sensible doubt the existence of a purgatory, at least allude to (suggest the possibility of) a purgatory. For example:

 

Allusion (01)

 

POSIT: In 2Mcc 12:38-46 a Jewish military commander named Judas Maccabeus made an attempt to atone for his dead soldiers' pagan amulets which he believed is a crime against God for Jews to wear. So Judas passed the hat among his surviving men and collected about 2,000 silver drachmas which were sent to Jerusalem intended for a sacrifice to expiate his dead men's sin so that it wouldn't jeopardize their resurrection.

 

RESPONSE: Although Judas meant well; what he did was itself a violation of the very Law that he sought to appease. There are no sacrifices stipulated in the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy for expiating the sins that people take with them over to the afterlife.

 

The very Law he sought to appease makes it a crime to either amend, embellish, add to, revise, edit, upgrade, update, or subtract from the covenant.

 

● Deut 4:2 . .You shall not add anything to what I command you or take anything away from it, but keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I enjoin upon you.

 

● Deut 5:32-33 . . Be careful, therefore, to do as the LORD, your God, has commanded you, not turning aside to the right or to the left, but following exactly the way prescribed for you by the LORD, your God,

 

● Deut 26:16 . . This day the LORD, your God, commands you to observe these statutes and decrees. Be careful, then, to observe them with all your heart and with all your soul.

 

Therefore, had the priests at Jerusalem accepted Judas Maccabeus' 2,000 silver drachmas for the purpose he intended, they would have been cursed.

 

● Deut 27:26 . . Cursed be he who fails to fulfill any of the provisions of this law!

 

The phrase "cursed be" is grammatically present tense; so that when Yhvh's people beak any one of the laws stipulated in the covenant, they incur an instant curse upon themselves-- no delay, and no waiting period.

 

Bottom line: What Judas Maccabeus did was just as pagan as the amulets that his men were wearing when they died.

 

Q: How can you doubt the truth of 2Mcc 12:38-46? It’s in the Holy Bible!

 

A: Just because somebody's personal beliefs are recorded in the Bible does not make their personal beliefs eo ipso truth. Judas believed it was possible for living Jews to offer sacrifices for the sins of dead Jews. Is it? No; absolutely not! Were it possible, then a procedure for that purpose would be stipulated in the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

 

Atonements for the dead fall into the category of sins of presumption; viz: unauthorized behavior.

 

If 2Mcc 12:38-46 teaches anything at all it’s that the Israel of Judas Maccabeus’ day was spiritually decadent-- just as decadent as it was in the days of the Judges when every man did that which was right in his own eyes rather than Yhvh's eyes; and they were still at it even in Christ's day and age.

 

● Mark 7:6-9 . . And Jesus said to them: Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far away from me. In futility do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men. Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.

 

● Mark 7:13 . . You invalidate the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.

 

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Edited August 14, 2016 by WebersHome

[missmuffet]

Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?"

Answer: According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!

Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8). Isaiah 53:5 declares, “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.” Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.

The primary Scriptural passage Catholics point to for evidence of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:15, which says, “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” The passage (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) is using an illustration of things going through fire as a description of believers’ works being judged. If our works are of good quality “gold, sliver, costly stones,” they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality “wood, hay, and straw,” they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer’s works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames.”

Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.

The very idea of Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1,14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins – that indicates Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.

For believers, after death is to be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say "away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire." No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord's presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.

http://www.gotquestions.org/purgatory.html

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Allusion (02)

 

POSIT: Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1032 fine print . . If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation?

 

RESPONSE: In the story of Job, it is very important to note that he offered sacrifices for his living children, not the dead ones; and sacrifices were made for his daughters' benefit too, not just the boys.

 

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Allusion (03)

 

POSIT: Zech 13:8-9 . . And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith The Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

 

RESPONSE:  Huge portions of Zechariah are predictions concerning Jews in an era called the Day of The Lord; not concerning Christians in the afterlife. Anybody with a 6th grade level of reading comprehension can easily see that the 13th chapter of Zechariah concerns the geographical land of Israel and the Jewish people of Israel; not the whole world nor the netherworld. The surviving third won't die and be removed from off the land and transported to a netherworld region for purification; but will remain alive and stay right where they are, to be taught a lesson for their sinful ways by means of dire straits caused by Yhvh's disciplining hand.

 

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[PatrolMan]

Where is purgatory ? Is it in the new compartment that the Adventist say God moved too when their prediction didn't come true?

[markdohle]

6 minutes ago, PatrolMan said:

Where is purgatory ? Is it in the new compartment that the Adventist say God moved too when their prediction didn't come true?

It resides in inner conflict and the need of the healing of grace.  It is not a place but a condition, of which the Grace of Christ Jesus heals with his Precious Blood. 

 

Peace

Mark

[HAZARD]

Where is purgatory ?

There is no such place. It exists only in the minds of some men.

 

 

[missmuffet]

I have a tendency to extend our Catholic friends on Worthy some grace. I can not debate with them because they have a very different view of Scripture than I do. They are also amillennial which I can not relate to at all. I can tell them this is what I believe but I would not get into a heated debate with them. 

[markdohle]

Missmuffet....One thing that shines forth in your post is you deep kindness my friend.....you are needed here.

 

Peace
mark

Edited August 15, 2016 by markdohle

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Allusion (04)

 

POSIT: Luke 12:57-59 . .Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

 

RESPONSE: Rome asserts that Jesus' statement suggests an afterlife place of temporal punishment where you can pay for sins that were un-absolved in this life when you passed on to the next. Conceptually, lazy Catholics who go long stretches in between confessions would risk this kind of suggested afterlife.

 

Apparently Rome has taken upon itself to construe Luke 12:57-59 to be a matter of criminal justice rather than the tort matter that it so obviously is.

 

The adversary in Luke 12:57-59 isn't a criminal prosecutor because the koiné Greek word for "adversary" in that passage is antidikos (an-tid'-ee-kos) which actually means an opponent in a lawsuit and/or small claims court rather than criminal court (e.g. Luke 18:2-5). Peter used antidikos to depict the Devil (1Pet 5:8) but I have never seen that word used even one single time to either identify, label, depict, or describe the Bible's God.

 

Jesus' caution is just simple, practical advice, and should be kept together with another of his teachings in the Sermon On The Mount about turning the other cheek.

 

● Matt 5:40 . . And if someone wishes to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.

 

Jesus began his teaching in Luke with the words "Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?" In other words; if someone threatens to take you to court over a matter, and you know darn good and well he's in the right; don't force him to prove it. Instead, admit to your wrong and settle out of court. According to Jesus, there's no righteous reason why you and the plaintiff can't be your own judge and jury in a tort matter.

 

Some people would rather go to war in court than admit they're wrong about anything (e.g. Enron executives). According to the lord and master of New Testament Christianity, it’s unrighteous to fight it out in court when you know your own self that you are the one who's in the wrong. (cf. 1Cor 6:1-8)

 

In Jesus' day, a portion of the tort system was a workhouse colony called debtor's prison. What that amounts to is; if you lost a lawsuit, and couldn't pay, then you were kept in ward until such a time as somebody either stepped up to settle with your creditor, or you earned enough via slave labor.

 

Jesus advised against fighting it out in court. Obviously it was far better in his day to settle out of court and thus avoid the risk of debtor's prison.

 

FYI:  Conceptually, Rome's interpretation of Luke 12:57-59 applies only to un-absolved venial sins since according to paragraph 1035 of the Catechism, people who leave this life with just one un-absolved mortal sin to their credit, go directly to Hell and eternal suffering-- no stopover in a purgatory.

 

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Edited August 16, 2016 by WebersHome