nebula Posted August 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.96 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted August 17, 2016 8 hours ago, Yowm said: Much counseling is from the law angle. "Do this, and you will overcome" etc. .all the while forgetting the law is powerless to bring renewal. It may bring repentance if attended by the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but it takes the Gospel's work to bring true restoration. This includes a grasp of what Christ has done, is doing and promises to do for us, as well as 'who we are in Christ'. It comes mainly with growth. Simple dos and dont's just won't cut it. Agreed. And if you think about it, it's that "law angle" that makes things controlling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted August 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.96 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted August 17, 2016 5 hours ago, Ezra said: The OP has generalized and blamed "the Church" for the deficiencies of individuals within the Church. He could have said that some of the individuals he has met have failed to meet biblical standards. I believe you are misunderstanding the what the OP was saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted August 18, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 18, 2016 On August 16, 2016 at 7:08 PM, nebula said: I believe you are misunderstanding the what the OP was saying. I think sometimes when people are using green sun glasses they unfortunately have trouble seeing any other color. If only people could take off their sunglasses every once in a while... God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted August 18, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 18, 2016 On August 15, 2016 at 8:17 PM, Butero said: I think that out of everything I saw in his article, the thing I had the biggest problem with was the way he tried to categorize everyone that stands against sin as doing so to control others, and further saying they are full of pride, false humility, deception and control. That is so judgmental. You can't possibly know what motivates ministers. They could simply be preaching {what they believe is} the whole council of the Word of God. They might be upholding certain standards in church because a little leaven leavens the whole lump. If I took this to it's logical conclusion, I would have to question Paul's motivation for turning that couple over to Satan in the church at Corinth. Was it his pride, false humility, deception, and desire to control that made him act as he did? No amount of punishment can force them to stop sinning, so why try to stop them? I have a lot of issues with the whole premise of this article. It is true that many people are simply preaching and teaching what they believe is the whole council of the Word of God. I think the example of the couple in the Church you are talking about is 1 Corinthians 15? I don't understand how this example, which Paul admitted that the kind of behavior being described was not even tolerated among pagans, has anything to do with the OP article? God Bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted August 18, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.36 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2016 6 minutes ago, GoldenEagle said: If only people could take off their sunglasses every once in a while... Yeah, sure. Someone comes along and says "the Church" does this and "the Church" does that, and nobody challenges that? Christians should seek the truth and also expose the lie. Christendom is divided and diverse, ranging from cults to conservatives, from non-denominationals to Orthodox. Therefore no one should presume to say "the Church" without clearly defining and delimiting who is being discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted August 18, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 18, 2016 On August 16, 2016 at 1:42 AM, Marilyn C said: Hi GoldenEagle, I would first define the word, `church,` - the Body of Christ or the organisations. 1. `I realize that most of the issues the church, (Body of Christ) has created are based on its addiction to control...` To me that is not scriptural as the Lord, the Head of the Body is building & maturing His Body, as He said, & His Holy Spirit is leading us into all truth. 2. `I realize that most of the issues the church, (organisation) has created are based on its addiction to control...` This seems to me what the writer is saying, though he does confuse the two, (organisation & Body of Christ). The `church` organisation is a legal entity which tries to provide `Peace & Safety` through legal means for the public attending its meetings. These `church` organisations have to `control` if they are to be a legal institution. Some one, people (Board etc) has to be accountable for laws, & rules & regulations put in place by governments. eg, - Food preparation regulations, (organisational dinners etc) - Health & Safety regulations, (Buildings, access, fire prevention, etc) - Insurance regulations, - safe Churches regulations for the rights of the child, (protection from abuse etc) - etc, etc, etc People try & `fix` the organisations but actually, it is the organisations themselves that are the problem. Organisation - legal institution = CONTROL by man. Ekklesia (church) = a living organism guided by the Holy Spirit. Marilyn. Hiya Marilyn, I don't see how you can separate the Church organization from the Church organism? Are you saying organized churches are not controlled by God's Holy Spirit? I don't follow at all here I think both the individuals leading the religious institution of the Church and the body of Believers that make up the local church struggle with pride, control, etc. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted August 18, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 18, 2016 On August 15, 2016 at 8:36 PM, nebula said: I am reminded of a quote: The Law is about changing our behavior. Grace is about changing our desires. On August 15, 2016 at 8:57 PM, Butero said: Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could change both. By the way, whose quote is that? On August 15, 2016 at 9:24 PM, nebula said: If the desire changes, does not the behavior follow? I have no idea who originated the quote. This is a great quote Neb! ? I would imagine if the desire changes the behavior would follow. John 14:15 says "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." Does God ask us first to change so He will save us? Or does He save us first so that He can change us? God bless GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted August 18, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 18, 2016 On August 16, 2016 at 3:04 AM, Ezra said: GE, Since you have asked me to respond to post #10 (from which I have quoted) Scripture is quite clear that Christians are (1) firstly accountable to the Lord, (2) secondly accountable to their pastors/elders, and (3) accountable to each other. So you have every right (and responsibility) to approach a sinning brother within your church and talk to him about his sin in order to bring him to repentance (James 5:19,20). This is not control but love in action. This may sound good but it is certainly not Scripture. Here's the Scripture regarding the defense of the faith (Jude 3): Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Hiya Ezra! I think Nebula really put forth a good example of how confronting people for wrong motives (appearances and personal preference) can be very detrimental to people being open to correction. The Bible talks about how to approach others... Matthew 18:15-20... Gal. 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself too, lest you be tempted. Eph. 4:1-2 I therefore, a prisoner of the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Eph. 6:4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. While we are accountable to each other we cannot and should not act as the Holy Spirit in others lives would you agree? God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted August 18, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 18, 2016 @Ezra (got a bit long so split the post) As to defense of the faith... 1. I believe we are Christians first. Americans (or insert your country of origin here) second. Often we forget that. Particularly in election years it seems. 2. I believe God can, surprisingly, take care of Himself. He has done so long before humanity came along. Sometimes Christians think we need to speak for Him, defend His honor, as if God God cannot speak for Himself. I believe Charles Spurgeon once said "The Gospel is like a caged lion. It does not need to be defended. It just needs to be let out of its cage." This requires us often to rethink our concept of God. Too often people want to treat God as a fragile, wounded kitten... When in fact He is a lion! When we change our perspective on this we realize God didn't need Isarael's sacrifices. He also doesn't need our defenses today. God's promises are true. His love, power, Grace, mercy, goodness is unwavering regardless of what anyone believes. He is constant. 3. I believe God speaks softly. When God spoke to Eljijah (1 Kings 19) it wasn't the wind, earthquake, or fire... God spoke in a still small voice. 4. Defending God is often motivated from the need to defend ourselves. People think that their beliefs define in a sense who they are. Take the obsession in the USA with the first amendment. Somehow freedom of religion has become an obligation. When so many throughout history have not enjoyed or participated in such freedom. The reason many Christians feel the need to defend God is because we feel the need to defend our honor, pride, security, what we believe is true, and our view of God. Maybe if we made some adjustments the accusations against us that we are hypocrites, selfish, narrow-minded, hateful, etc. would fall by the wayside. Maybe if we focused on Jesus more instead of focusing on {being right} more people would see more of His grace through us. What do you think? God bless Ge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted August 18, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 18, 2016 59 minutes ago, Ezra said: Yeah, sure. Someone comes along and says "the Church" does this and "the Church" does that, and nobody challenges that? Christians should seek the truth and also expose the lie. Christendom is divided and diverse, ranging from cults to conservatives, from non-denominationals to Orthodox. Therefore no one should presume to say "the Church" without clearly defining and delimiting who is being discussed. Question that just occurred to me after reading this: If the author had said "some Christians" instead of "he Church" would you still object? (and this goes for others such as @Butero or @Marilyn C too ? ) God bless GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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