The Addiction that is Costing Christians their Freedom? {Control}

[GoldenEagle]

26 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Exactly.  And there is no proof or hard evidence whatsoever that the Church (the Body of Christ in total) has such an addiction. This writer made a sweeping generalization because he has no real evidence. Thus it is merely a rant.

The Church consists of those who have been redeemed by the grace of God, have been born-again, and are children of God. That is not necessarily the case for Christendom in general, since there are millions who bear the label "Christian" but are not really saved. So unless  we make such distinctions properly we are not judging righteously.

Bottom-Line: Christian freedom (liberty is more appropriate) is not the freedom to do as we please, but that appears to be what this writer believes.  To apply the word "control" to matters of denying ungodliness and worldly lusts is to have a very superficial idea of the teachings of Christ, who said that His disciples must take up their cross daily and follow Him.

Christians are commanded to "disciple" those who are newly saved.  This includes teaching on what is acceptable and what is not acceptable for Christians. But today anything that does not suit a free-wheeling mentality is labeled "legalism" and "control".  That is nonsense.

Hiya Ezra  

Well that is a very short response to what I felt I put some serious thought and took time to respond to... But some questions then: 

What is Christian liberty in your mind?

What is the difference between discipling people and encouraging them? 

What is or how do you define a free-wheeling mentality? 

What did you think of post #10 specifically the example comparing our lives to houses? 

God bless,

GE

[gdemoss]

22 hours ago, GoldenEagle said:

Hiya Gary! Good to see you on the forums too.  

I agree that Jesus had a way with people. Yet the difference as you say is Jesus was led by the Holy Spirit and was perfect in accomplishing His mission. He was and is God. We are not. 

While a woman may want to rule over her husband the opposite can be true about a husband who wants to rule over his wife. There is a difference between being a bully and being a servant leader. There is a difference between being a selfish, self-absorbed, prideful, and over-bearing husband... And then being firm yet loving. Kind yet speaking the truth. These are areas I struggle with. 

There is a difference between subduing creation and trying to subdue other people. God didn't command people to subdue each other. I believe that's a big difference. That is the work of the Holy Spirit is it not? Sure we can speak the truth but it must be done in love right?

I can relate to feeling like a terrible student of Christ. I can also relate to being clumsy like Peter trying to cut off the soldier's ear. Action is not always the answer. Listening and a kind word go a long way with others. 

I'm thankful that my sanctification is up to God's Holy Spirit and not something I'm solely responsible for. Otherwise I would fail miserably. Thank you for your thoughts brother!

God bless,

GE

Agreed brother!

Man, in Genesis, was spoken too as a whole.  There were no other humans so the command could not have been concerning other people at the time but over the course time that changed.  We have been called to have dominion without the need for carnal weapons but rather the sword of the Spirit which is able to pull down strongholds.  We are at war but we kill with kindness not swords and guns.  God has ministers attending to that work when necessary who do not bear the sword in vain but we fight the good fight of faith which is about leading others unto true freedom in the Lord.  Even Jesus delivers up the kingdom unto GOD the Father in the end and simply becomes one of us.  He does not care to be elevated to any great position.  Yet for a time he must reign.  And we are to reign with him.

Jesus said that we could aspire to be as he is in this life.  Paul said that is the purpose he gave some apostles, pastors, teachers etc.  John remarks later that they had become as he is in this world.  Yet, we struggle.  For rhis world has become increasingly more enticing.  Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life have multiplied their outlets in massive ways.  Therefore Paul warned that the people of God would eventually become lovers of their own selves.  Selfie anyone?

Speaking the truth in love is more important than ever.  Condescending to men of low estate as our Lord came down unto us is paramount to the covering of a multitude of sins.  

I have been blessed to see more and more how important it is to have a position of influence over family, friends and even strangers for the Lords sake.  That his body might continue to be edified even in these times.  1+1 does not always equal 2 for the whole is truly greater than the sum of all its parts.

 

[nebula]

I am reminded of a quote:

The Law is about changing our behavior.

Grace is about changing our desires.

[nebula]

24 minutes ago, Butero said:

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could change both.  By the way, whose quote is that? 

If the desire changes, does not the behavior follow?

I have no idea who originated the quote.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎14‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 10:49 PM, GoldenEagle said:

Thoughts on this article?

God bless,
GE

The Addiction that is Costing the Church it's Freedom

I realize now that most of the issues the church has created are based on its addiction to control.......

 

Hi GoldenEagle,

I would first define the word, `church,` - the Body of Christ or the organisations.

1. `I realize that most of the issues the church, (Body of Christ) has created are based on its addiction to control...`  To me that is not scriptural as the Lord, the Head of the Body is building & maturing His Body, as He said, & His Holy Spirit is leading us into all truth.

2. `I realize that most of the issues the church, (organisation) has created are based on its addiction to control...`  This seems to me what the writer is saying, though he does confuse the two, (organisation & Body of Christ).

The `church` organisation is a legal entity which tries to provide `Peace & Safety` through legal means for the public attending its meetings. These `church` organisations have to `control` if they are to be a legal institution. Some one, people (Board etc) has to be accountable for laws, & rules & regulations put in place by governments. eg,

- Food preparation regulations, (organisational dinners etc)

- Health & Safety regulations, (Buildings, access, fire prevention, etc)

- Insurance regulations,

- safe Churches regulations for the rights of the child, (protection from abuse etc)

- etc, etc, etc

 

People try & `fix` the organisations but actually, it is the organisations themselves that are the problem. 

Organisation - legal institution = CONTROL by man.

Ekklesia (church) = a living organism guided by the Holy Spirit.   

 

Marilyn.

[Ezra]

On 8/14/2016 at 7:00 PM, GoldenEagle said:

Yet where does accountability come into the picture?

GE,

Since you have asked me to respond to post #10 (from which I have quoted) Scripture is quite clear that Christians are (1) firstly accountable to the Lord, (2) secondly accountable to their pastors/elders, and (3) accountable to each other. So you have every right (and responsibility) to approach a sinning brother within your church and talk to him about his sin in order to bring him to repentance (James 5:19,20).  This is not control but love in action.

On 8/14/2016 at 7:00 PM, GoldenEagle said:

The truth is like a lion; you don’t have to defend it.

This may sound good but it is certainly not Scripture. Here's the Scripture regarding the defense of the faith (Jude 3):

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

[Ezra]

On 8/14/2016 at 10:05 PM, GoldenEagle said:

What is Christian liberty in your mind?

Christian liberty is primarily related to liberty from (a) bondage to the Old Covenant and (b) bondage to the flesh. The Law of Christ has replaced the Law of Moses and the Law of Sin and Death. But that is not a license to sin, but rather freedom to serve God instead of the world, the flesh, and the devil.  See Romans 8 and Galatians 5 & 6.

On 8/14/2016 at 10:05 PM, GoldenEagle said:

What is the difference between discipling people and encouraging them? 

Discipling pertains to obedience to Christ (Matthew 28:19,20). For example, many Christians will share the Gospel with others and lead them to Christ, but few will follow through and tell those new believers that Christ has commanded them to be baptized immediately. As a result many believers remain unbaptized for years, and suffer spiritually as a consequence. There are many other teachings of Christ which must be obeyed, since obedience is proof of love to Christ.

Encouragement on the other hand pertains to helping new Christians understand their position in Christ. Too many Christians really have not been taught who they are in Christ, and as a result experience depression, low self-esteem and insufficient spiritual growth.

On 8/14/2016 at 10:05 PM, GoldenEagle said:

What is or how do you define a free-wheeling mentality? 

A free-wheeling mentality is one which fails to understand that a disciple is under discipline.  Which means that those who were formerly undisciplined in their lives must see themselves as soldiers, and also accept the hardships of soldiers.  Which also means that all their bad habits, addictions, sinful attitudes and behaviors are all to be repented of and forsaken, while new Christian habits are put in place (which our buddy was objecting to). That is not as difficult as it may appear when that person sees himself primarily as a servant of Christ.

Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully. (2 Tim 2:3-5).

[nebula]

6 hours ago, Ezra said:

GE,

Since you have asked me to respond to post #10 (from which I have quoted) Scripture is quite clear that Christians are (1) firstly accountable to the Lord, (2) secondly accountable to their pastors/elders, and (3) accountable to each other. So you have every right (and responsibility) to approach a sinning brother within your church and talk to him about his sin in order to bring him to repentance (James 5:19,20).  This is not control but love in action.

This may sound good but it is certainly not Scripture. Here's the Scripture regarding the defense of the faith (Jude 3):

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

The problem, though, is in how you confront  someone.

I had a situation where my pastor confronted me about a behavior. When I explained to him my struggle that was behind the behavior, he didn't care; he just wanted the behavior to cease and desist. Instead of ministering to my hurt, struggles, and/or insecurities, instead of suggesting some guidelines to work through my struggles, instead of considering perhaps another woman in the church who could talk with me and help me, he basically stood strong in his determination that he was going to have me comply then and there.

Do you supposed I felt loved at that moment?

Do you suppose I felt as if his concern was for me or for himself and maintaining proper appearances?

[Ezra]

3 hours ago, nebula said:

When I explained to him my struggle that was behind the behavior, he didn't care; he just wanted the behavior to cease and desist.

That was wrong, but it is a separate issue.  And, yes. too many pastors don't really want to take the time to minister to Christians one-on-one (even though that is their primary responsibility) and help them through their struggles.  But we need to separate biblical principles from unbiblical practices.

The OP has generalized and blamed "the Church" for the deficiencies of individuals within the Church. He could have said that some of the individuals he has met have failed to meet biblical standards.

[Willa]

Most of the pastors I have seen that rant against sin have personal struggles against sin and almost seem to be pointing the finger without first examining their own lives.

Case in point was Jimmy Swaggert.  I would immediately turn him off because it was not the Holy Spirit working.   In the New Testament we see a lot of do nots, but rather do this.  It points the way to how to overcome by repenting and then focusing on Christ and what He does want us to do.  

To me the best preaching teaches through a whole book of the Bible, stopping to cross reference and explain background and customs as well.  So it covers the don'ts just as stated in the Bible but does not dwell there.  It provides a balance of encouragement.  

1Co 6:9  Or don’t you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Don’t be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals,  1Co 6:10  nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor extortionists, will inherit God’s Kingdom.

1Co 6:11  Such were some of you, but you were washed. But you were sanctified. But you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God.  1Co 6:12  “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are expedient. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be brought under the power of anything.

This passage plainly teaches that those who practice evil and identify with it will not go to heaven.  It also shows that we can be delivered from the grasp of evil.  Christ sets us free.  Too often preachers go on and on about evil without glorifying God and showing that He triumphs over it.  They dwell on sin.  

When pastors stick to the scriptures they don't get sidetracked on their own opinions of "don'ts".  They are not telling us to stop playing cards or listening to Tchaikovsky as I have heard in the past.  This is where they get controlling.  If the Bible doesn't say it is sin, I ignore the advice.  Moreover, I won't stay in a church where a pastor adds to Scripture or is caught up in self righteous attitudes for abstaining from more things than I do.  The pastors who are self righteous are doing a lot of harm.  Those who come along side us and compassionately pray for us in our struggles are showing Christ's love.  This is the Jesus who said, he who is without sin among you cast the first stone.