The Addiction that is Costing Christians their Freedom? {Control}

[GoldenEagle]

20 hours ago, nebula said:

I can't help but think of a this particular song. 

I'd gone through so much other stuff
that walking down the aisle was tough
but now I know it's not enough ....

I asked the Lord into my heart
they said that was the way to start
but now you've got to play the part ....

They told me that I'd fall away
unless I followed what they say
who needs the Bible anyway? [meaning, you have to follow their interpretation of the Bible rather than reading the Bible for yourself and learning to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit yourself]
....

[sarcasm] I'm grateful that they show the way
'cause I could never know the way
to serve him on my own....

 

But how do you explain this to someone who never realized they were being choked by control, or are being controlling themselves?

That is the thing... I don't think sometimes people mean to be controlling. Nor do people mean to be controlled. 

The best thing to do is to read the Bible and allow God's Holy Spirit to guide you. People are flawed. Even the great heroes of the faith and those modern heroes of the faith. 

I don't have an answer but I hear you. Perhaps pray for God to open their eyes? Or continue to engage hoping that something will come of it? 

God bless,
GE

[GoldenEagle]

21 hours ago, Butero said:

By the way, the OP asked for opinions of the article, so that is what I am giving.  Some like, but I don't.  Some agree with it, but I don't.  I think the person who wrote the article is trying to control ministers.  He is using this tactic to get them to stop preaching against sin, and stop having standards in place.  I don't receive that.  It is not that it struck a nerve, because for that to be the case, it would mean I am convicted by the article, and thus controlled by it's author into becoming what he thinks I should be.  My issue with the article is I see the intent behind it, and it is not right. 

I don't see him using this article to get preachers to stop preaching against sin. Nor do I see others who see some value in the article stating they believe drinking excessively, fornication, or cursing as being something positive. The author is speaking to parents, children, leaders, authors, and pastors... Why is it so hard to get past the pastors portion of it? 

Instead, the author was challenging people (parents, children, leaders, authors, and pastors) to think differently. Control is not a fruit of the spirit. Self-control is correct? 

I'm curious though what do you believe is the intent behind the article? To silence pastors? To excuse sin? Why would he do that? Curious. 

Where does the Bible talk about controlling others in a positive light?

God bless,
GE

[GoldenEagle]

 

20 hours ago, Ezra said:

That's it in a nutshell.  And as you {Butero} say, it is "junk".  There is no solid biblical basis for that article, which makes a wild accusation against the so-called "Church".  Some people are simply looking for excuses to excuse themselves.

I have no idea what you're talking about. The article was saying that people (parents, spouses, church leaders, authors, pastors, etc.) tend to want to control others with our perception of the truth. Take the idea that all women should wear dresses for example or have a certain length of hair. Or the idea that all men should have beards or not have long hair. Or that all forms of discipline is bad or that everyone should spank their children for discipline. I don't know why the fixation on church leaders. Can you not see control as an issue among others? Lol.

I guess you read into that pastors wanting to control those who are of their flock. I don't think anyone who agreed with the article is looking for excuses to excuse themselves. Drinking alcohol is not a sin. Becoming drunk is certainly unwise at best and a sin at worst. Nobody who is in favor of this article is claiming that adultery or fornication is not a sin. And cursing is not wise at best and a sin against God when using His name for example in vain at worst.

Where does the Bible talk about controlling others in a positive light? 

I didn't like the entire article. I think though he does make a good point that controlling others is not a fruit of the spirit. Self-control is don't you think?

God bless,
GE

[GoldenEagle]

19 hours ago, Leonardo Von said:

I’m sorry, but I disagree. According to Jesus, whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant (Mt 20.27). Authority isn't who have power to control, but, as said Peter:

• "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [ thereof ], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; neither as being lords over [ God's ] heritage, but being e{x}amples to the flock." (1Peter 5.2,3).

Only one is Judge, Jesus (James 4.12). The Father committed all judgment unto the Son (John 5.22).

Our way to reprove works of darkness (Eph 5.11) is through our good witness.

 

What do you think Peter means by "being lords over {God's} heritage"? ? 

How does one be an example to the flock? 

I really think we need to define "control". When I use the word I'm talking about... "the power to influence or direct people's behavior or the course of events." I wonder how others are using the term?

God bless,
GE

[GoldenEagle]

On August 18, 2016 at 6:58 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi GoldenEagle,

Thank you for getting back to me. Now that is a very good comment as many people also find it difficult to separate the two - organisation & Body of Christ.

Here are some answers -

1. Christ is returning for the Body of Christ not  the organisations.

2. The organisation, with the buildings, rules & regulations, the power structure that comes with that, are all of man, while the Body of Christ is a living organism of believers, by the Holy Spirit, across the world.

3. The authority of the organisation & the Body of Christ are quite different. For example - if you are in an organisation`s meeting you have to obey the leader`s rules & authority - for legal reasons. However if you met that leader down the street those rules would not apply to you, only in the building.

When you have a legal organisation then that organisation owns the buildings, the furniture, controls the times of meetings & how they are run & what beliefs are taught. It is controlled by man & thus limited.

However the Body of Christ can meet anywhere without being connected to the legal system of man. The leadership will be recognised by gifting & character & received whether in a gathering or down the street having a coffee.

4. The organisation beliefs, especially in error, will go through the whole organisation of perhaps millions of people. The Body of Christ however not connected to man`s organisation can have error but it will be confined to a small area as others don`t have to believe the error. Then also, when revelation comes, (clarification of truth) then this can easily flow through the Body of Christ by relationships & is not hindered by central control in an organisation which tries to maintain its beliefs & not receive further clarification by the Holy Spirit.

5. Also because the organisation owns property etc it then has to maintain these, update, enlarge etc & this funnels money into perishable areas where really it should be used to help those in need, etc.  

6. Finally, & very importantly, we are now seeing that man`s organisations are joining with the world system & turning away from their basic belief in the Lord - Apostasy.

regards, Marilyn.

Hiya Marilyn  

1. The Body of Christ is made up of various organizations... People in those organizations make up the Church. Take different Christian denominations for example. Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Catholics, Orthodox, Assembly of God, etc. all have Believers who attend and participate in those organizations. Or do you believe differently? 

2. I agree with everything except the "are all made of man" insertion. It was God's idea to have His church on earth. How the Church changes over the centuries is an interesting phenomena. Don't you think? 

3. I really liked your thoughts here. I agree the Body of Christ can meet anywhere. We met with some friends recently who are Believers. It wasn't a "church" service but it was certainly edifying and beneficial to catch up with them. Some of them were from my childhood and others from college days. 

4. How does revelation or clarification of truth? 

5. So I take it you don't participate in a local, organized church? Or you speaking of inefficiencies and buying buildings worth millions of dollars while the poor in the city go without food or shelter?

6. Which organizations are joining the world system and turning away from God? Do you mean generally speaking or a specific group/denomination? 

Very well thought out post! And love that you numbered everything so we can keep the conversation going. 

God bless,

GE

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, GoldenEagle said:

Hiya Marilyn  

1. The Body of Christ is made up of various organizations... People in those organizations make up the Church. Take different Christian denominations for example. Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Catholics, Orthodox, Assembly of God, etc. all have Believers who attend and participate in those organizations. Or do you believe differently? 

2. I agree with everything except the "are all made of man" insertion. It was God's idea to have His church on earth. How the Church changes over the centuries is an interesting phenomena. Don't you think? 

3. I really liked your thoughts here. I agree the Body of Christ can meet anywhere. We met with some friends recently who are Believers. It wasn't a "church" service but it was certainly edifying and beneficial to catch up with them. Some of them were from my childhood and others from college days. 

4. How does revelation or clarification of truth? 

5. So I take it you don't participate in a local, organized church? Or you speaking of inefficiencies and buying buildings worth millions of dollars while the poor in the city go without food or shelter?

6. Which organizations are joining the world system and turning away from God? Do you mean generally speaking or a specific group/denomination? 

Very well thought out post! And love that you numbered everything so we can keep the conversation going. 

God bless,

GE

Hi Golden Eagle,

Thank you for your thoughtful comments & interest in what I believe. I will answer 1 -3 now & then later 4 – 6.

Hope you don`t mind as I`d like to give you a bit of background so you can understand where I am coming from. I realise & appreciate that you are trying to understand what I mean. I would have thought similar to you probably 10 years ago. I understand the view that the `Church` is made up of denominations & that anything outside that is a `parachurch,` or backslidden. (I was taught that). The view thinks that if someone doesn`t go to an organisational meeting then they are not in the Church. I probably had that view once.

However, due to illness, I had to decide where I would spend my time & energy. Previously I used to do Sunday School, music, leadership & bible classes etc etc, but because of limited strength it made me focus. Thus I believe the Lord directed me to make disciples, mentor people in their homes etc, one on one mostly, ladies & sometimes couples with my hubby.

I have done this over time & bit by bit for about 10 – 15 years. These disciples are now discipling others who actually are now discipling others – 3 generations of disciples & quite a big number if counted, (but not all in the one spot). The first generation people know of each other, but then their relationships do not know of the others. They are from a wide area across the valley & beyond. 

 Most of them do not go to organisational meetings, that is their choice. It is not for me to say how they want to meet with others.

So to your first comment. I will add my bit in bold.

1. The Body of Christ is made up of believers, some of whom attend various organizations... Some people in those organizations make up the Church. Take different Christian denominations for example. Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Catholics, Orthodox, Assembly of God, etc. all have Believers & unbelievers who attend and participate in those organizations. Or do you believe differently? 

Once we start to use the word `church` we tend to get into a cultural idea – organisation, building, a person in charge with power over others, & a certain type of meeting. It has been ingrained or indoctrinated into us that the format we have today in a public meeting run by a religious organisation is THE CHURCH, & anything else is NOT. My view is that it is only ONE WAY for the Body of Christ to come together.

Not sure if you realise it but all over the world there is a great move of people seeking OTHER WAYS to meet as the Body of Christ.

 

Now to you second comment. Actually I see that it includes the part about the changes in the Church, the Body of Christ, so I will leave for when I make a comment on Q.4, (later)as it fits in there.

Your third comment was very encouraging & actually is a snap shot of how we as the Body of Christ meet with each other here.

I really do appreciate your kind words, thoughtful comments & willingness to ask about things different than how you see them at the moment.

Marilyn.

[brakelite]

The essence of what we are discussing is 'how do we practice our Christian faith, and by whose authority do we submit?" Ministering the gospel is not a legalistic control exercise. I agree with the article. It is not the church's responsibility to "sanctify" the individual believer. That is solely the work and the prerogative of the Spirit of God working in the heart and mind of the individual through His word. Any attempt we make in doing God's work we are attempting to create other Christians in in our image. It is our duty to introduce people to Jesus, and then let Him do what only He can. Recreate people in His image.

Edited August 25, 2016 by brakelite

[Leonardo Von]

On 8/23/2016 at 10:34 PM, Ezra said:

That's it in a nutshell.  And as you say, it is "junk".  There is no solid biblical basis for that article, which makes a wild accusation against the so-called "Church".  Some people are simply looking for excuses to excuse themselves.

On 8/23/2016 at 9:59 PM, Butero said:

No, I got it right the first time.  I found the article to be judgmental and intellectual junk.  It is promoting false doctrine, saying we should not be preaching against sin and trying to get people to follow God's teachings, but we are to go around accepting and loving everyone by accepting their sin.  I know what is behind the message.  It is not true. 

The point isn’t this. I fully agree that sin is unmasked in the Church. What I don’t agree is in trying to control each member by force, using the fear of punishment for try to create a robotic Church. What would be the objective of creating a uniformly organized Church, with no errors, by force or violence (see Zechariah 4.6)?

Nothing must be done guided by fear. After all, he that fear is not made perfect in love. (1John 4.18).

Furthermore, if it was to somebody to control the Church by force, no one better to this than Jesus Himself. He has all power, authority, wisdom, knowledge, justice and love to this. Notwithstanding, he planted the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2.9) and have set before us life and death, blessing and cursing  (Deut 30.19).

Not to mention the fact shown on verses below:

 

·         “Behold, happy [ is ] the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole.” (Job 5.17,18).

·         “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [ things ].” "(Isaiah 45.8).

·         “Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.” (Isaiah 54.16).

·         “Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!” (Mathew 18.7).

·         “For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.” (1Cor 11.19).

·         “Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: the one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: but the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. (Phil 1.15-18).

·         “Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!” (Rev 22.11).

 

And what was the motive for this?

 

·         “[ What ] if God, willing to shew [ his ] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” (Rom 9.22,23).

 

Beyond that, Jesus never did question that His disciples was robotically uniformed. Differently, He chose disciples that, if it was us, we never would choose: four illiterate fishers, one revolutionary, one publican and one thief (and on top of that to be treasurer). And, even Jesus knowing all this, nevertheless He never prosecuted, threated or censured him. But until in the moment that Jude was betraying, Jesus continued to offer His friendship to him (Mathew 26.50).

All this happened to teach us that, instead of trying to keep the evil far away or to fight it with evil, we ought to overcome evil with good (Rom 19.21). Unfortunately, we believe more in the power of evil than in the power of God.

Our problem isn’t in the size of the evil, but the absence of space within us to make the grace of our Lord Jesus superabound (Rom 5.20).

The Eternal created and endured the vessels of wrath to make known the riches of his glory. Therefore, instead of wanting to control wolves, goats, vessels of wrath, that we strain ourselves to make room within us for everything that is Jesus can be known by all.

Summarizing: instead of managing people so that they don’t make the evil (how intend to do the antichrist – Rev 13.16,17), that Jesus can show through us that there is no evil so great that His glory and grace can’t turn into something good for those who love Jesus (Rom 8.28).

The proof of this is that, even Ha-Satan and Jude having total liberty to act, they finish contributing with the plan of redemption of all mankind. In other words, until the participation of Jude and Ha-Satan was take in account (see Ps 41.9; John 13.18) to teach us that when a man's ways please the LORD (Prov 16.7), nothing can be withholden from thee. (Job 42.2; Isaiah 43.13).

At finally, hear the voice of the Lord, be guided for it (Rom 8.14) and everyone will can see the good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God in you (Rom 12.2) and, with this, make room within them to Jesus’ Spirit to convince them of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment (John 16.8).

May Jesus bless you.

 

[RustyAngeL]

On 8/14/2016 at 7:49 AM, GoldenEagle said:

Thoughts on this article?

God bless,
GE
 

 

I never thought of control being an addiction but it makes sense.  Very good.

[nebula]

5 hours ago, Butero said:

Maybe being controlled or being controlling isn't the biggest problem of our day, or even in the top 10.  I personally don't think it is.  Bad behavior is far worse. 

Controlling is bad behavior.