The Addiction that is Costing Christians their Freedom? {Control}

[GoldenEagle]

6 hours ago, gdemoss said:

Jon, good to see you my brother!

Question:  Did Jesus control others?

My answer:  Yes.  Jesus spoke by the very Spirit of God.  God said and it was.  Jesus said and it was.  What Jesus did was control his tongue with absolute percision.  He was here on a specific mission which he fulfilled.

Consider how he 'handled' people (read controlled) with his words.  

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone at her....they all dropped their stones one by one.  Speaking by the Holy Spirit he convinced them that if they killed her they too deserved to die.  

Truth sets people free.  I have been learning how to weild the sword of the Spirit as did the master to lead people the truth about themselves and the sin that lives within them.  I taught my wife that the bible declares that all women will desire to rule over their husbands then solidified that truth in her by helping her see when it manifests in her.  She understands.

The article is speaking truth about sin that lives inside us and desires to manifest through us by dominating our fellows but as is the danger of doing so the author exposes their own heart to control others.

The sword of the Spirit is two edged.  It will also cut me when I use it to judge another therefore we are judged when we judge others.  Jesus did not teach that we were not to be controlling for his servant Paul denanded it of Bishops amd Deacons alike as pertaining to their families as well as congregations.

It is not a matter of whether or not to rule for the scriptures command and never remove the command of go out into all the world and subdue it.  No, the matter is with how to rule which is by loving God with all your heart, mind, soul and body while loving your neighbor as yourself. 

What did James say about controlling others?  He said we could if we did not offend in word or deed.  

From day six of creation moving forward we have been ordered by God to subdue all things.  God is in the process of subduing all things unto himself.  Bringing all things under the feet of his Christ whose body we are.

What is my basic trouble?  Me.  I am a horrible student of Christ.  I am a terribly clumbsy soldier who cuts off the ears of those who might hear had I spoke by wisdom rather than  vanity.

Thanks for the thoughts Jon, you are a wonderful friend in Christ.

Hiya Gary! Good to see you on the forums too.  

I agree that Jesus had a way with people. Yet the difference as you say is Jesus was led by the Holy Spirit and was perfect in accomplishing His mission. He was and is God. We are not. 

While a woman may want to rule over her husband the opposite can be true about a husband who wants to rule over his wife. There is a difference between being a bully and being a servant leader. There is a difference between being a selfish, self-absorbed, prideful, and over-bearing husband... And then being firm yet loving. Kind yet speaking the truth. These are areas I struggle with. 

There is a difference between subduing creation and trying to subdue other people. God didn't command people to subdue each other. I believe that's a big difference. That is the work of the Holy Spirit is it not? Sure we can speak the truth but it must be done in love right?

I can relate to feeling like a terrible student of Christ. I can also relate to being clumsy like Peter trying to cut off the soldier's ear. Action is not always the answer. Listening and a kind word go a long way with others. 

I'm thankful that my sanctification is up to God's Holy Spirit and not something I'm solely responsible for. Otherwise I would fail miserably. Thank you for your thoughts brother!

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

6 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

I think you have to have a certain amount of control in certain conditions to have order. Like Paul said to the church if anyone speaks a unknow language let it be one by one not all at once. Its true if someone does want to do as they will nothing will control that. Its a fine line between control and leading. Paul said to submit to one another. But that does not mean if a person tells you to do something wrong. We are to obey Christ not men. But then it says submit to each other. You submit to others if what they want is under Christ. And not in all things . Then it becomes a cult.

Hiya Wayne!  

I think you bring up a good point about orderly worship. The issue becomes when people try to tell others how to worship, what to wear, and what is acceptable to God above and beyond what the Bible says. Is that what you are talking about? 

What is the difference between control and leading? Perhaps the difference is motivation? One who seeks to control has his or her own interest at heart. One who seeks to lead others has their best interest at heart? Something I've been struggling through after reading this. 

You are the second person to bring up a cult. What do you mean by this? 

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

4 hours ago, Ezra said:

 

Quote

I realize now that most of the issues the church has created are based on its addiction to control.

Here’s another example of (a) misusing the term “addiction” and (b) misusing the term “church”.  So this broad generalization is inaccurate and unfair. The Lord Jesus Christ commanded the Church (those who are genuine Christians) to “make disciples” and disciples are to be under the discipline of Christ, not free to do as they choose.

 

Quote

We have confused salvation with behaviour management, and we have traded the good news for good advice… our exclusive, only we are right, advice.

This sounds more like a rant than a statement of fact. Those who preach the true Gospel do not simply give “good advice” but offer the Bread of Life. Those who do not preach the true Gospel may be the ones who can only give advice.

Hiya Ezra!  

 

1. Re: “I realize now that most of the issues the church has created are based on its addiction to control.”

Interesting that you say that this statement from the article is inaccurate and unfair. What do you mean that the words addiction and church are being misused? 

 

Addiction: noun. the fact or condition of being addicted to a particular substance, thing, or activity.

Church: noun. Those who believe in Jesus Christ and follow His teachings.

Do people not try to correct, change, and control one another in the Church? Who said anything about being free to do as they choose? What specifically are you talking about? Are you talking about drinking, cursing, fornicating, etc? 

Jesus gave a new command to love one another. (see John 13:31-35) His parting words were make disciples of all people. (Matthew 28:19-20) 

 

2. Re: "We have confused salvation with behaviour management, and we have traded the good news for good advice… our exclusive, only we are right, advice."

Why does this sound more like a rant than a statement of fact? Do people not try to control others in the Church? Women should wear this. Men should wear that. Children are to be quiet in worship services. They are to be seen but not heard. Questioning leadership when what they teach doesn't align with Scripture is not allowed. Perhaps it's when opinions and personal preferences trump the command to love each other as Christ loved the Church? 

 

Due to the length I'm going to respond in a second seperate post.  

God bless,

GE

[PatrolMan]

36 minutes ago, GoldenEagle said:

Lol surely this is a joke right?  

God bless,
GE

Yes it was

[Wayne222]

Hi GC.  I think a group become a cult if a leader become abusive and tries to make it seem it's Gods will. He should be leading by the doctrine in the new testament. Paul told Timothy to teach faithful men the traditions he was taught by Paul. If you teach unbiblical doctrine and make it a command then it's cultic. Religion around a man . Lead by the teachings of the new testament. Control is making others obey out of the fear of leaders. If I wore jeans and others were wearing suits. And they said I did not respect God. I would say that's teaching fear of man . And it's very controlling. But order is a good thing. Like trying to get to church on time. Parking in the right places. I would always submit to order. 

[GoldenEagle]

5 hours ago, Ezra said:

Quote

We want others to do less  _____________ (drinking, cursing, fornication, etc.) and more _____________ (praying, tithing, serving, etc).

Well salvation is not a license to keep on sinning or doing the things of the world.  And praying, tithing (giving), and serving are all proof that a person is truly saved. So it is not what “we want” but what the Lord commands.
 

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I’m realizing that most of the issues in my life have been created because of my addiction to control.

Perhaps this is the reason for this article. But projecting “addiction” on others, and particularly the Church, benefits no one. No doubt there are controlling individuals among Christians. But that is not what this article is telling us.

3. Re: "We want others to do less  _____________ (drinking, cursing, fornication, etc.) and more _____________ (praying, tithing, serving, etc)."

I think there's at least a three-fold relationships to examine here.

The first issue is that of how Christians interact with other Christians. Often it seems Christians try to tell other Christians how and what to do in their walks with God. Again, it comes down often to opinions and personal preference being interpreted as universal, Biblical truths. Drinking say wine may be a serious issue for one brother but may not be a big issue to another brother. Yet among some Christians in the Church if a person drinks it's a sign of sin. Why? Control in my opinion. Wanting to control non-essentials instead of focusing on the non-negotiables. 

I don't know that praying, tithing, serving are proof that one is truly saved. They are good things or deeds for sure. But proof one is truly saved? I don't know... One can be a great servant in the local church but still not be saved. One can pray religiously or even "pray" publicly in a very eloquent manner but not have a relationship with Jesus Christ. One could give generously and still miss the essence of the Gospel. 

I submit that the fruits of the Spirit are the proof that a person is truly saved. This may include praying, serving, and giving. But those are the by products of living a Spirit filled life. Not the other way around. 

Then the second issue is Christians trying to control those who are non-Christians. Take for example Christians expecting non-Christians to be moral and have the same values as found in the Bible. Take Christians expecting non-Christians to understand that sex before marriage is wrong. That using God's name in vain is wrong and a sin. That using language in a manner to demean one's self or others is not pleasing to God. We should not expect lost people to act saved. 

The third issue is Non-Christians trying to control Christians. I think this is pretty self explanatory. In the U.S. it comes across as removing the 10 commandments from schools and public places. It comes across as trying to minimize prayer in public. That everything is relative and there is no absolute truth. That somehow if you are a Christian you cannot voice your opinions or views. We should not be surprised by this. Lost people will act lost. 

 

4. Re: "I’m realizing that most of the issues in my life have been created because of my addiction to control.
(In Context...)
I want to control how my wife expresses her emotions. I want to control how my kids respond to my correction. I want to control how my pastor pastors me.

The truth is, I don’t need control. I want control. #Addicted "

 

I would say most people struggle with control in some form or fashion. We want to control our environments, those around us, and how people interact with us. Control is elusive and an illusion. Only God has control over our lives. 

To say not everyone struggles with wanting control is like saying that not everyone struggles with pride in my opinion. Don't you think?

God bless,

GE

[Ezra]

52 minutes ago, GoldenEagle said:

Addiction: noun. the fact or condition of being addicted to a particular substance, thing, or activity.

Exactly.  And there is no proof or hard evidence whatsoever that the Church (the Body of Christ in total) has such an addiction. This writer made a sweeping generalization because he has no real evidence. Thus it is merely a rant.

54 minutes ago, GoldenEagle said:

Church: noun. Those who believe in Jesus Christ and follow His teachings.

The Church consists of those who have been redeemed by the grace of God, have been born-again, and are children of God. That is not necessarily the case for Christendom in general, since there are millions who bear the label "Christian" but are not really saved. So unless  we make such distinctions properly we are not judging righteously.

Bottom-Line: Christian freedom (liberty is more appropriate) is not the freedom to do as we please, but that appears to be what this writer believes.  To apply the word "control" to matters of denying ungodliness and worldly lusts is to have a very superficial idea of the teachings of Christ, who said that His disciples must take up their cross daily and follow Him.

Christians are commanded to "disciple" those who are newly saved.  This includes teaching on what is acceptable and what is not acceptable for Christians. But today anything that does not suit a free-wheeling mentality is labeled "legalism" and "control".  That is nonsense.

[GoldenEagle]

3 hours ago, Butero said:

I see all kinds of problems with this post.  First of all, the things he says we are trying to control:  drinking, cursing and fornication.  Am I supposed to believe that Jesus doesn't want ministers to come against fornication?  Really???  The Bible states that fornicators will not inherit the Kingdom of God.  The Bible warns us not to drink in excess, and that no drunkard shall inherit the Kingdom of God.  Are we not supposed to warn people?  Cursing is interesting to me because it is more about what people see as unclean words, rather than specific words the Bible mentions, but we are told to have our conversation seasoned with salt, and cursing makes us look low class and dirty, so is it really a good idea? 

I feel like the guy that wrote the article was being judgmental in making out like he knows what drives people to stand against sin.  Pride, false humility, deception and control.  Based on what?  It is possible that those things do drive some, but you can't make that statement across the board.  In one place, he mentions how he can't control how his kids respond to discipline.  If they are free, and freedom is being able to make your own choices, why discipline them at all?  Isn't that controlling them?  You can control them by switching them or making them stand in the corner, but you can't expect results? 

Freedom is not a license to sin, and that is how this comes across to me.  Just look again at his examples.  Fornication.  Does that mean that we have freedom in Christ to have casual sex?  Did Jesus really want Peter to remain stubborn and Thomas to doubt?  It seems to me he rebuked Peter and sorrowed over Thomas's doubt to the point he had him feel the nail prints in his hands and his side where the spear pierced him so he wouldn't doubt again.  This just comes across to me as another anti-legalism commentary, and I don't see it as scriptural. 

Hiya Butero!  

If you'll take a look at post #19 to Ezra I think the topic in general speaks to 3 types of relationships: Christians to Christians, Christians to non-Christians, and Non-Christians to Christians. 

Each would have a different response to fornication. The first relationship with a Christian speaking to another Christian would be an appeal to the person living in sin as a brother or sister in Christ. There are warnings and then there are warnings. There's also trusting the Holy Spirit to be the Holy Spirit in other Christian's lives. And not comparing one person's chapter 20 to another person's chapter 1. 

How do you warn a Christian about becoming a drunkard? How do you warn a non-Christian? Can you force someone to go to Alcoholics Anonymous? 

A Christian to a non-Christian relationship is different. As is a Non-Christian to a Christian relationship different. 

There's a difference between disciplining kids out of love and disciplining them out of anger. There's a difference between disciplining kids to control their behavior or to provide an atmosphere for heart change. A rebellious heart cannot be controlled no matter what discipline you provide. Sometimes it's learning when to give grace. Sometimes it's learning when loving your kid means giving them a spanking. Kids need to know first and foremost you love them as a parent before they are able to accept correction. 

The relationship between a child and an adult parent is different from that of two adults. Wouldn't you agree? 

I don't think any Christian who believes the Bible would argue that sex outside of marriage is a good thing. I don't view the article as promoting freedom as a license to sin at all. It's pointing out that I have no control over how others behave, think, or react. 

Peter was rebuked but forgiven. Thomas's doubt was troublesome but Jesus overcame it. I wonder though why you overlook Judas's betrayal? Of course, on the one hand Peter and Thomas were both Believers. Judas was not. 

I don't think it's unreasonable to say most people struggle with the desire to control their lives and others. Just like many if not most of us struggle with pride on some level. 

Instead of viewing it as an anti-legalism commentary why not try to learn something from it? Or put yourself in another person's shoes? 

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

1 hour ago, PatrolMan said:

Yes it was

Any thoughts on the actual article or topic of conversation?  

[GoldenEagle]

1 hour ago, Wayne222 said:

Hi GC.  I think a group become a cult if a leader become abusive and tries to make it seem it's Gods will. He should be leading by the doctrine in the new testament. Paul told Timothy to teach faithful men the traditions he was taught by Paul. If you teach unbiblical doctrine and make it a command then it's cultic. Religion around a man . Lead by the teachings of the new testament. Control is making others obey out of the fear of leaders. If I wore jeans and others were wearing suits. And they said I did not respect God. I would say that's teaching fear of man . And it's very controlling. But order is a good thing. Like trying to get to church on time. Parking in the right places. I would always submit to order. 

Hiya Wayne  

I think I see what you mean. I like what you say about following the teachings in the Bible and/or New Testament. Order is a good thing it seems. God is the God of order. 

What if you had long hair as a man and others did not? 

What if women were told they couldn't wear pants or have shorter hair? 

"Control is making others obey out of the fear of leaders." Is that true, Biblical leadership though? That is what I'm struggling with... 

God bless,

GE