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The Addiction that is Costing Christians their Freedom? {Control}


GoldenEagle

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On 8/18/2016 at 8:58 PM, Marilyn C said:

Here are some answers -

1. Christ is returning for the Body of Christ not  the organisations.

2. The organisation, with the buildings, rules & regulations, the power structure that comes with that, are all of man, while the Body of Christ is a living organism of believers, by the Holy Spirit, across the world.

3. The authority of the organisation & the Body of Christ are quite different. For example - if you are in an organisation`s meeting you have to obey the leader`s rules & authority - for legal reasons. However if you met that leader down the street those rules would not apply to you, only in the building.

When you have a legal organisation then that organisation owns the buildings, the furniture, controls the times of meetings & how they are run & what beliefs are taught. It is controlled by man & thus limited.

However the Body of Christ can meet anywhere without being connected to the legal system of man. The leadership will be recognised by gifting & character & received whether in a gathering or down the street having a coffee.

4. The organisation beliefs, especially in error, will go through the whole organisation of perhaps millions of people. The Body of Christ however not connected to man`s organisation can have error but it will be confined to a small area as others don`t have to believe the error. Then also, when revelation comes, (clarification of truth) then this can easily flow through the Body of Christ by relationships & is not hindered by central control in an organisation which tries to maintain its beliefs & not receive further clarification by the Holy Spirit.

5. Also because the organisation owns property etc it then has to maintain these, update, enlarge etc & this funnels money into perishable areas where really it should be used to help those in need, etc.  

6. Finally, & very importantly, we are now seeing that man`s organisations are joining with the world system & turning away from their basic belief in the Lord - Apostasy.

regards, Marilyn.

I agree with all that you said and I make an add in item 5: to maintain the organisation functioning, they are capable of doing everything, including to frighten the members to that they contribute financially, with any regards to their economic condition.

 

On 8/25/2016 at 5:42 AM, brakelite said:

The essence of what we are discussing is 'how do we practice our Christian faith, and by whose authority do we submit?" Ministering the gospel is not a legalistic control exercise. I agree with the article. It is not the church's responsibility to "sanctify" the individual believer. That is solely the work and the prerogative of the Spirit of God working in the heart and mind of the individual through His word. Any attempt we make in doing God's work we are attempting to create other Christians in in our image. It is our duty to introduce people to Jesus, and then let Him do what only He can. Recreate people in His image.

On 8/24/2016 at 7:14 PM, GoldenEagle said:

What do you think Peter means by "being lords over {God's} heritage"? ? 

How does one be an example to the flock? 

I really think we need to define "control". When I use the word I'm talking about... "the power to influence or direct people's behavior or the course of events." I wonder how others are using the term?

God bless,
GE

One thing is control, that is, attempting to create other Christians in our image (like said Brakelite above), forcing them to be like us, as we think that they ought to be.

Other thing is influence, that is, we let the Spirit of Jesus convince them of of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment (John 16.8) through us.

 

On 8/25/2016 at 8:13 PM, Butero said:

Maybe being controlled or being controlling isn't the biggest problem of our day, or even in the top 10.  I personally don't think it is.  Bad behavior is far worse. 

 

On 8/26/2016 at 2:09 AM, nebula said:

Controlling is bad behavior.

I agree totally with sister Nebula. If Jesus needed of our strength to keep His disciples acting correctly, then His sacrifice would have been in vain and He would have lied when He said that He Himself would build the Church (Mathew 16.18). Not to mention that, who try to control some member is saying that nobody is born again (John 3.3), always in need of someone to prevent its wolf nature devour everything and everyone fiercely.

Furthermore, to whom we must be faithful: to the laws that men think that we should obey, or to what Jesus tell us (see Isaiah 29.13; Mark 7.7; Titus 1.14)?

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On August 25, 2016 at 6:13 PM, Butero said:

Maybe being controlled or being controlling isn't the biggest problem of our day, or even in the top 10.  I personally don't think it is.  Bad behavior is far worse. 

 

On August 26, 2016 at 0:09 AM, nebula said:

Controlling is bad behavior.

 

I've continued to wrestle with this... 

Controlling others is bad behavior? 

Self-control is good behavior?

After reviewing God's Word on this subject here's what I found...

James 1:10
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Proverbs 25:28
A man without self-control is like a city broken into and left without walls.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

1 Peter 4:7
The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

2 Peter 1:5-7
For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.

Titus 1:8
But hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined.

Seems like nowhere in the Bible could I find passages where controlling others was a good thing? Controlling one's self with the help of the Holy Spirit? In other words self-control? Yes. 

God bless,
GE

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On ‎30‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 1:48 PM, GoldenEagle said:

 

 

I've continued to wrestle with this... 

Controlling others is bad behavior? 

Self-control is good behavior?

After reviewing God's Word on this subject here's what I found...

James 1:10
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Proverbs 25:28
A man without self-control is like a city broken into and left without walls.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

1 Peter 4:7
The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

2 Peter 1:5-7
For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.

Titus 1:8
But hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined.

Seems like nowhere in the Bible could I find passages where controlling others was a good thing? Controlling one's self with the help of the Holy Spirit? In other words self-control? Yes. 

God bless,
GE

Hi Golden Eagle,

I so agree with you. If we let others control us then obviously Christ is not our Head, we have given that position & authority to a mere person. No wonder the Apostle Paul warned the Colossians, (& by the Holy Spirit - us) -

` Let NO ONE defraud you of your reward........& not holding fast to the Head,....` (Col. 2: 18 & 19)

 

Marilyn.

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On 8/14/2016 at 7:49 AM, GoldenEagle said:

Thoughts on this article....

:thumbsup:

Good

For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. Galatians 5:13-26

Stuff

Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,  To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. Titus 3:1-9 (King James Bible)

Beloved

Now flee from youthful lusts, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.

And the Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. 2 Timothy 2:22-26 ( New American Standard Bible 1977)

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Teaching right from wrong is the church's responsibility (and parents). Calling sin by its right name is paramount. Instructing members to learn how best to study God's word, and to share their faith with others, vital. But to begin to take upon ourselves the role of changing people's hearts and minds, is stepping over the line. Encouraging people to obey God is one thing...encouraging people to obey us is another matter entirely, and is a sure way to establishing a cult.

"The first step of apostasy is to set up a creed, telling us what we shall believe.
The second is, to make that creed a test of fellowship.
The third is to try members by that creed.
The forth to denounce as heretics those who do not believe that creed.
And fifth, to commence persecution against such."

Matthew 13:24 ¶  Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25  But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26  But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27  So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28  He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29  But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Luke 9:51 ¶  And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
52  And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53  And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54  And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55  But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56  For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

In our legalistic self-righteous finger-pointing attitude to those among us that we observe aren't measuring up to our own "impeccable standard" we can do every bit as much damage to people new to the faith, or those not yet fully committed, as those disciples sought to do to those unbelieving Samaritans. 
 

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I've renamed this thread to "The Addiction that is Costing Christians their Freedom?" since it seems to fit the conversation better.

God bless,
GE

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On 1/09/2016 at 6:08 AM, Yowm said:

I'm not trying to pick apart what you are saying but it seems that door can swing both ways. So maybe the answer is neither extreme.

"The first step of apostasy is to throw out all creeds, telling us what we shall believe.

The second is, to make no creed a test of fellowship.
The third is to try members if they have a  creed.
The forth to denounce as heretics those who do believe in a creed.
And fifth, to commence persecution against such."

 

 

Pagan religions have for centuries had as one of their most sickening characteristics a mindset that all must cleave to that particular belief or pay dearly, often with your life. Look at the history of the Papacy. Millions tortured and often killed over matters of conscience, because they did not accept the creeds and dogmas or teachings of the church. I am against all forms of creeds. Because they do inevitably result in ostracizing those who disagree.  Protestant churches were likewise very slow to understand the true meaning of liberty of conscience.  if rightly understood, religious liberty is the hallmark of true Christianity, and demands freedom of conscience, even for those to not believe if they so choose. I am not American, but I do have some American heroes...first and foremost being Roger Williams. He understood. 

Your scenario above assumes that those who advocate religious liberty, that is freedom from creeds and dogma as a test for fellowship, are willing to persecute those who do have creeds. Is that not an oxymoron?The point is, you may have a creed and live by it if you wish, that is your choice. But do not use your creed to justify disfellowshiping those who don't accept some or all of your creed. Such a case is of course unlikely, because very few people would desire fellowship with people who are not in the same ball-park when it comes to Biblical doctrine. My church does not have a creed. But it does have a list of fundamental beliefs which it uses as a benchmark for baptism. I disagree with this, though I was baptised initially under that formula. I have since changed my views on one particular point of those fundamentals. And many others in my church have also, and been disfellowshiped because of it. It is this kind of church behavior I object to. Our set of 'fundamental beliefs' in the beginning was never to play a role  as a creed. Unfortunately, it has developed in that direction.

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21 minutes ago, Yowm said:

No, it was merely showing the absurdity of both extremes.

Even for one to say "I will have nothing to do with creeds" is a creed in itself...a self defeating one at that.

Why have a creed? What's wrong with sola scriptura?

 

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48 minutes ago, brakelite said:

Why have a creed? What's wrong with sola scriptura?

Sola Scriptura should be applied by having a clear Statement of Faith backed up by relevant Scripture. Creeds were formulated for a certain time and place, but can be subject to misunderstanding.  for example "He descended in to Hell" is really "He descendend into Hades".

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5 hours ago, Yowm said:

A creed is simply a summary of what you believe. (creed-creer-credo-belief)

Yes, I know what it is, what I was asking is why have it? To my mind a creed is like the Ten Commandments. Set in stone it completely negates the future realization of error, or the more mature teaching of revelation. It sets in concrete that which is presumed to be infallible truth. This is the case for many churches, particularly the RCC, and huge damage has resulted to many millions of innocent people. It reminds of Jesus warning to the Pharisees, "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men". Whereas a set of fundamental beliefs written with the view that they can be added to, or even altered if at some time in the future it is realized that the church was in error, leaves room for being taught. Who on this forum would would guarantee 100% truth in everything they believed per Biblical teachings?

The Nicean Creed is an example. The controversy over the trinity is still an open question, and so it should be. But not according to those who uphold the "creed". To them it is a rock-solid verification of Biblical truth, with a capital "T". Yet is cannot be, for it is only an 'inferred' doctrine, regardless of the majority opinion. Even the doctrines of salvation by faith alone means different things to different people. Who truly believes that the Lutherans and the Catholics are really in 100% agreement on justification by faith? Despite the fancy agreements and peace treaties.

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