The Addiction that is Costing Christians their Freedom? {Control}

[Leonardo Von]

On 8/31/2016 at 6:46 AM, brakelite said:

Teaching right from wrong is the church's responsibility (and parents). Calling sin by its right name is paramount. Instructing members to learn how best to study God's word, and to share their faith with others, vital. But to begin to take upon ourselves the role of changing people's hearts and minds, is stepping over the line. Encouraging people to obey God is one thing...encouraging people to obey us is another matter entirely, and is a sure way to establishing a cult.

"The first step of apostasy is to set up a creed, telling us what we shall believe.
The second is, to make that creed a test of fellowship.
The third is to try members by that creed.
The forth to denounce as heretics those who do not believe that creed.
And fifth, to commence persecution against such."

Luke 9:51 ¶  And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
52  And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53  And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54  And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55  But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56  For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

In our legalistic self-righteous finger-pointing attitude to those among us that we observe aren't measuring up to our own "impeccable standard" we can do every bit as much damage to people new to the faith, or those not yet fully committed, as those disciples sought to do to those unbelieving Samaritans.

I agree with you, Brakelite. The people need to be the image and likeness of the Eternal, not ours.

Many people think that we have to fight against Ha-Satan and to witness for others. However, the spiritual weapons are for defense. Note the various passages that instruct us to refuge in God and to rest in Him (Psalm 23.2; 46.1; 91.1; Matt 11.28,29). If it was for us to fight, he would have done us warrior lions, and not lambs (Matt 10.16) or children (Mark 10.14,15).

The armour of the God’s Spirit It is for us to resist temptation. If every time we were faced by people we stand firm, the people would see Jesus in us and will allow the Spirit of God convince them (John 16.8). To preach the gospel (Mark 16.15) means give space in our lives to Jesus’ Spirit inside us to continue to do the work that He commenced (Phil 1.6; Titus 3.4-6). In doing this, He can transform us from glory to glory so that we go back to being the image and likeness of the Eternal (2Cor 3.18).

In other words, we preach the gospel, not shoving the gospel down their throat, but allowing God works in us both to will and to do of [ his ] good pleasure (Phil 2.12,13). When we sanctify ourselves, they also might be sanctified through the truth (as Jesus did – John 17.19).

Edited September 7, 2016 by Leonardo Von

[brakelite]

11 hours ago, Yowm said:

 

Why have a creed? That is like asking why have a belief?

You may not agree with certain creeds but certainly you have your own creeds, otherwise you wouldn't be thinking.

Now that is true, I could easily make a list of those central core beliefs that I consider fundamental to my faith, and I certainly am not shy to share those with everyone who will listen. But unlike many churches, I don't demand anyone adhere to those same beliefs in order to stay in the conversation. It isn't a 'creed' so much as what churches and/or individuals tend to use them for.

[Ezra]

On 8/29/2016 at 9:48 PM, GoldenEagle said:

Seems like nowhere in the Bible could I find passages where controlling others was a good thing?

What if you did?  Would that give you pause?

Looks like you are being influenced more by the psychological trends of the world than anything else.

[brakelite]

39 minutes ago, Yowm said:

I can see a valid use when it comes to screening teachers or pastors. You do want a teacher who pretty much lines up with the teachings of the local church in question and not just pick someone hoping that their teaching is not from Mars.

 Even non denominational churches have a statement of faith listing their core beliefs ...hopefully from Scripture.

 

 

Indeed. And when theological colleges are teaching evolution and NLP techniques for preaching, a church must set down some sort of a benchmark...although have you noticed that heresy or/and apostasy always comes down to us common folk from the top? So if a church is already infected with a disease what hope for a benchmark that isn't corrupted?

[FresnoJoe]

On 8/31/2016 at 4:46 AM, brakelite said:

Teaching right from wrong is the church's responsibility (and parents). Calling sin by its right name is paramount. Instructing members to learn how best to study God's word, and to share their faith with others, vital. But to begin to take upon ourselves the role of changing people's hearts and minds, is stepping over the line. Encouraging people to obey God is one thing...encouraging people to obey us is another matter entirely, and is a sure way to establishing a cult.

"The first step of apostasy is to set up a creed, telling us what we shall believe.
The second is, to make that creed a test of fellowship.
The third is to try members by that creed.
The forth to denounce as heretics those who do not believe that creed.
And fifth, to commence persecution against such."

Matthew 13:24-30 ¶  Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Luke 9:51-56 ¶  And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

In our legalistic self-righteous finger-pointing attitude to those among us that we observe aren't measuring up to our own "impeccable standard" we can do every bit as much damage to people new to the faith, or those not yet fully committed, as those disciples sought to do to those unbelieving Samaritans.

The Only Way

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

I Know To Follow The Law

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:27-28

Is To Walk After The LORD Jesus Christ

He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love. Song Of Solomon 2:4

[brakelite]

4 hours ago, Yowm said:

This is where the 'laity' so called (i.e. us peons), need to be studied as Bereans and not let the wool be pulled over our eyes so easily...and I don't mean one or two members, but the majority, to protect the weaker of the flock from wolves.

Brings to mind something written by one of my favorite writers in reference to the church of the very final days...

"But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority—not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain “Thus saith the Lord” in its support.

[GoldenEagle]

On September 7, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Butero said:

If you really believe as you say you do, you must hate Worthy Christian Forums.  People aren't free to believe or do anything they feel led to do here.  We have moderators that make people watch the words they use and the things they say.  I once had a moderator who is no longer in that position tell me I wasn't allowed to use words to describe a practice I consider sinful, though in my conscience, I was using the proper terminology.  It wasn't profanity or anything like that.  If you think it is wrong to try to control people in church, you must feel the same about this forum. 

I have no issue with trying to control people's bad behavior.  There is a clear example of this taking place in Corinthians regarding people in fornication.  Why not let the Spirit of God convict of sin?  Maybe these people hadn't felt convicted yet.  Perhaps given enough time, they would have changed on their own.  Maybe they had a bad childhood, and it will take many years for them to stop fornicating on their own.  Why turn them over to Satan?  How about people here that use bad words?  Maybe they haven't realized they are bad. 

Nobody, and I mean nobody, that I know of really believes we shouldn't try to control people's behavior.  What most people object to is when someone tries to control something they don't want controlled. 

Butero,
How do you know what I think of the forums? Please don't add to or read into what I said. I shared what I found in Scripture that self-control is found in the Bible and controlling others is not. The site has rules that the owner (George) has set in place. If we want to participate in this community (Worthy Forums) we must abide by them. Interestingly enough one of those rules is to debate the subject and not the person.  

But let's not derail the thread here or miss the point of Nebula's post and my follow-up. Where do you (or anyone else) find evidence of controlling others in the Bible in a positive light?

James 1:10
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Proverbs 25:28
A man without self-control is like a city broken into and left without walls.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

1 Peter 4:7
The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

2 Peter 1:5-7
For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.

Titus 1:8
But hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined.

God bless,
GE

[nebula]

Butero, there is a difference between discipline and control.

You understand this concept with government, correct? Marxist-based governments are controlling. Democratic-based governments ideally are disciplining but not controlling.

The same principle can be found in church governments/leadership.

The same principle can also be found in individuals. Ever have or hear about a "controlling boss"? Would you consider a non-controlling boss to be someone who is lax in discipline and keeping order?

[GoldenEagle]

16 hours ago, Butero said:

I don't know how you feel about these forums.  I presume that you are fine with them, and that is why I find your position strange to say the least.  Yes, this site does have rules that were set in place, as do churches and even ministries like the one Bill Gothard was running.  They all have rules of conduct for members, and I was taking it from the way this thread was going, you had a problem with them having rules because it controls behavior.  I remember once being told by someone that I was facing discipline at one site I shall not name so I would learn how to talk to people.  In that situation, I didn't attack anyone.  I just said that if someone took one position in an instance and took a different stance in another, that was hypocritical.  The person didn't like that, so I was disciplined in order to control my behavior.  As I said, I shall not mention the site by name, but the point is that everyone seems to be ok with controlling behavior in some instances.  Are people allowed to say or do anything at your FB ministry? 

As long as I have heard this kind of thing debated, I can't remember a single instance where anyone was for 100 percent total freedom to allow the Spirit of God to lead an individual in how they behave.  If they did, you would have anarchy.  You want to know if there are things in the Bible that promote controlling people?  Of course there are.  There are all kinds of requirements to hold church offices like bishop and deacon.  That is controlling the church.  There are rules for orderly worship.  There are rules regarding the wife of the bishop or deacon.  Bishops and deacons must be the husband of but one wife, which certainly would make them think twice about divorce.  I don't see how this is debatable. 

 

16 hours ago, Butero said:

I was just thinking about something.  When I was Pastor of a church, Biblical order controlled my decisions.  A church manual did too in many instances, but the Bible caused me to do things in certain ways.  I remember when we had a situation dealing with widows, I had to look to the Bible to determine how to go about granting or refusing assistance from church funds.  The Bible controlled me.  I may have done things different on my own, but I yielded to God's authority.  I have made other decisions for similar reasons.  When it came to placing people in different offices, the Biblical guidelines caused me to take positions that weren't easy to do, financially, and just having to face people.  If I was not to be controlled by anyone, including the Lord through his Word, and was going only by my feelings, which naturally I would claim was the Spirit leading me, I would have done things entirely different in a lot of areas.  People will go by personal feelings and claim they are being Spirit led.  That is often wrong. 

Butter I agree with Nebula. There's a difference between church discipline and control. 

There's a difference between following what the Bible lays out for elders or pastors and making policies on how others should or should not behave that are outside of Scripture or open to interpretation.

For example, take the qualifications for Elders and Deacons in 1 Timothy 3 or Titus 1. (See these links for the KJV version of both passages) Some would say someone who is divorced should not be an pastor, elder, deacon. Others say that grace is to be given and each situation is different. Notice self-control is mentioned. But being able to control others is not. 

Take telling fellow Christians how to dress, what length their hair should be, what version of the Bible to read, or any other personal preference. 

I'll ask again what passages specifically speak to Christian controlling other Christians in a positive light? 

God bless,

GE

[Leonardo Von]

On 9/8/2016 at 8:52 PM, Butero said:

I was just thinking about something.  When I was Pastor of a church, Biblical order controlled my decisions.  A church manual did too in many instances, but the Bible caused me to do things in certain ways.  I remember when we had a situation dealing with widows, I had to look to the Bible to determine how to go about granting or refusing assistance from church funds.  The Bible controlled me.  I may have done things different on my own, but I yielded to God's authority.  I have made other decisions for similar reasons.  When it came to placing people in different offices, the Biblical guidelines caused me to take positions that weren't easy to do, financially, and just having to face people.  If I was not to be controlled by anyone, including the Lord through his Word, and was going only by my feelings, which naturally I would claim was the Spirit leading me, I would have done things entirely different in a lot of areas.  People will go by personal feelings and claim they are being Spirit led.  That is often wrong. 

One thing is to submit to Jesus and His word; another is to be led by men.

Walk after commandment of men is like a blind leading other blind: both shall fall into the ditch. (Matt 15.14). In other words: they will do exactly the contrary of what Jesus desire:

 

• ·         “And the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw nigh [unto me], and with their mouth and with their lips to honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men which hath been taught [them];”(Isa 29.13 – ASV).

• ·         “Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [ for ] doctrines the commandments of men.” (Mark 7.7).

 

Thence the express order:

 

• ·         “Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.” (Col 1.18,19).

• ·         “Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.” (Titus 1.14).