Comments on soap box debate with Butero and Shiloh

[Behold]

3 minutes ago, Rick_Parker said:

When I say "material things," I mean not human things. Material things are things like cars......Are you just looking to argue or do you not know what material things are? GOD didn't actually make the car, that was from man's imagination, although GOD did give us the knowledge. Get it now?

Why are you asking me if im "looking to argue'?

You are the one that read what i said then came running to ME with your interesting confusion.

I was only trying to help you, fella.

[Guest]

OK, "fella." You are the one that couldn't seem to differentiate between my statement that GOD created Adam, then man recreates man in his own image and man creates (with his imagination) material things. Didn't know that I had to spell it out for you. Perhaps you should read more carefully (or slowly.) I don't need your help, and don't call me "fella." My name is Rick.

[Guest]

Did GOD create evil? Here are some points to consider. First, the Bible is clear that God brings blessing upon those who love Him and and disaster upon those who don’t, which is one of the ways Isaiah 45:7 can be interpreted. And second, since He created both angels and men with the power to choose between good and evil, you could say that ultimately He’s responsible for the evil in the world.

But before Satan rebelled there was no evil, only the potential for such. After his rebellion he enticed mankind to rebel as well. In this way evil came into the world. In order for God to have prevented evil from ever entering into the Creation, all beings would have to have been created without the power of choice. Had that been the case, we would have had no alternative but to love God, which means our love would be of no value to Him. And then what would be the point of the creation? We don’t have anything else He wants.

[FresnoJoe]

2 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

Did GOD create evil,,,,
Here are some points to consider....
He created both angels and men with the power to choose between good and evil....
you could say that ultimately He’s responsible....
for the evil in the world....

One

“Therefore, Jeremiah, go and warn all Judah and Jerusalem. Say to them, ‘This is what the Lord says: I am planning disaster for you instead of good. So turn from your evil ways, each of you, and do what is right.’” But the people replied, “Don’t waste your breath. We will continue to live as we want to, stubbornly following our own evil desires.” Jeremiah 18:11-12 (New Living Translation)

Could Say

This then is what I mean. Let your lives be guided by the Spirit, and then you will certainly not indulge the cravings of your lower natures. For the cravings of the lower nature are opposed to those of the Spirit, and the cravings of the Spirit are opposed to those of the lower nature; because these are antagonistic to each other, so that you cannot do everything to which you are inclined. But if the Spirit is leading you, you are not subject to Law. Now you know full well the doings of our lower natures. Fornication, impurity, indecency, idol-worship, sorcery; enmity, strife, jealousy, outbursts of passion, intrigues, dissensions, factions, envyings; hard drinking, riotous feasting, and the like. And as to these I forewarn you, as I have already forewarned you, that those who are guilty of such things will have no share in the Kingdom of God. The Spirit, on the other hand, brings a harvest of love, joy, peace; patience towards others, kindness, benevolence; good faith, meekness, self-restraint. Against such things as these there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified their lower nature with its passions and appetites.

If we are living by the Spirit's power, let our conduct also be governed by the Spirit's power. Let us not become vain-glorious, challenging one another, envying one another. Galatians 5:16-26 (Weymouth New testament)

Men Mock Jesus With Their Play

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin. James 4:13-17 (English Standard Version)

Yet God Still Came Down To Teach And To Pay

A second time He went away and prayed, "My Father, if this cup cannot pass unless I drink it, may Your will be done." Matthew 26:42 (Berean Study Bible)

So, Who Gets The Sin

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinthians 5:21 (English Standard Version)

And Why

LORD, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground. He has no form nor comeliness. When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

He was despised, and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and familiar with illness; and as one from whom men hide their face. He was despised, and we did not value him.

Surely he bore our diseases, and took our pains; yet we considered him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

But he was pierced for our transgressions, and he was crushed for our iniquities. The punishment that brought our peace was on him; and by his stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray. Everyone has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he did not open his mouth. As a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is mute, so he did not open his mouth.

In his oppression his justice was taken away. Who will consider his generation? For his life was cut off from the earth, led to death for the transgression of my people.

And they assigned his grave with the wicked and with the rich in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet the LORD was pleased to crush him and make him ill. When you make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring. He shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

After the suffering of his soul he will see light and be satisfied. By his knowledge shall my servant, the righteous one, make many righteous, and he will bear their iniquities.

Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and he was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sins of many, and made intercession for their transgressions. Isaiah 53 (New Heart English Bible)

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible)

Love, You Brother Joe

[The_Patriot21]

1 hour ago, Yowm said:

I noticed in Butero's latest response at least three times he would allude to what Shiloh's response would be...this is a poor debate tactic.

I think he brought forth some really good points, he called out shilohs accusations of poor hermanuetics, that while even if true, stating it serves no real purpose. It was a poor debate tactic on shilohs part, as is buteros alluding to Shilohs response, both are guilty of poor debate tactics there.

 

and while I dont agree with Buteros stance doctrinally, he did in his last point bring out some good points, and flaws in the logic used against him. First, his counter argument against our justice system-he has a point, our justice system, is inheritently different then Gods, in that that Gods is perfect, ours is not, and that sometimes our legal system does indeed use evil for good.

His other point which I would like to point out is his argument on Job. Shilohs question "how can anyone trust God if they believed God created people to do evil" and Buteros counter question "how could anyone trust God after reading Job" both valid questions. The problem with buteros, is the assumption that the only alternative theory to his is based on prosperity doctrine. The issue with Shilohs, is that it is indeed clear throughout the Bible that there were instances that God either created people to be evil-or used evil-to fulfill His plan.

now, Shiloh makes a point, that nowhere in the Bible does God use evil to fulfill his plan. Butero, is right, thats a false argument, though Buteros examples, are incorrect. Butero brings up Israel being ordered by God to destroy the canaanites, and the philistines, and the flood. None of these things are evil brought upon by God. If God is a holy, and just God, and perfect, then anything that He expressely orders-or causes, therefore cannot be evil. God ordered the destruction of the canaanites, He ordered it, it wasnt evil. same with the philistines, and same with the flood. If God had the right to create the world and every living thing in it-He also has the right to destroy anything in it, at will, and not be evil. Its like me going out and buying a car. That car is mine to do with as I please. I can treat it nice, and keep it in tip top shape, or I can lace it with C4 and blow it up. its my car, I can do with it as I please. Same with God and His creation. If God ordered it, its not evil.

The examples that He should have used, and has in the past, is, like in the case of the Pharoah in egypt, God intentionally hardened Pharoahs heart, in order to fulfill His bigger plan. God also allowed other countries such as babylon and persia, to take over Israel, as punishment for the Israelites disobediance. Then theres the case of Judas, whom Jesus himself said was "doomed to destruction so that scripture might be fulfilled" in John 17:12, which if there was a black and white case of God predestined anyone, its Judas himself. Evil is used, frequently, to further Gods cause. I would say, that God himself does not create evil people to fulfill His cause-that would go against His nature-but to say that evil, in and of itself, isnt used, and God.

now, I dont believe God sits there and predestines us all-as in none of us have any choice-some of us evil, some elect, etc. Were not robots, we have free choice. But on the same note, there are specific cases, like pharoah, where God did harden pharoahs heart-the Bible does specifically state that. And Job, God allowed all that to happen, Judas, etc.  And now matter how you look at it, the question "How can I believe in a God that creates evil" is in reaity, not entirely different then "how can I believe in a God that allows bad things to happen to good people" And while there is a definite difference, explaining it to someone who is going through a situation, is difficult, because all they see is the end result-which in their shoes, is the same thing.

Its kind of a touchy subject if you look on it, its a hard concept to grasp-there is definite cases in the Bible, that evil was indeed needed to bring forth Gods plan, and the Bible even says that all things-good or bad-work together for good or for bad for those who love God and stay true to His name. But where is the law drawn, between God pre-ordaining everything, and free choice? Like with Judas. Did Judas have a choice? well, if Judas had chosen not to betray Jesus, then who else would betray Jesus? Jesus would either have to pre-ordain one of them to betray Him to fulfill prophecy-or pre-ordain someone who would betray Him, to be one of His disciples. You could argue "he allowed" someone who would betray Him to follow Him, but its pretty much the same thing, if you look at it. So we pretty much have one person, who pretty much was sent just to betray Jesus, but on the other hand, you have "for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that WHOMSOEVER, believeth on Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life" which pretty much destroys the argument of predestination.

I bring forth these arguments, not because I agree with Butero doctrinally, but because I recognize that these concepts can be difficult for people to grasp, especially if they are struggling. Both Butero and Shiloh are well versed in the Bible and their respective doctrines, which is why I wanted this soap box debate in the first place, to bring both sides to the table, so that people can see what scripture says, and learn from it. My prayers is both of them stray away from the bad debate tactics, and just rely on debating the scripture, and not whos using bad hermaneutics, or putting words in the others mouths.

[enoob57]

19 hours ago, Flsnookman said:

So may I ask how is what you so eloquently say any different? You do not want to accept the Word at face value when it disagrees with you (response 1) but you will quickly quote it when you think it agrees with what you believe. I would say all of us do this to one extant or another. I would also say that it is ok as we each have our own walk with God and the Holy Spirit teaches us not what we think we should know but rather what God thinks we should know.  I think the danger for any of us comes when we "think" we know so much that we can no longer be taught. That said I do appreciate your views even though we may disagree.

These are real and self dependent notions... it is and there will be only one true doctrine that can be formed from God's Word that passes the fire of God's testing and all that pursue God should be with all of their being seeking this initial knowing of God intimately... God through His Word washes us from the error in this world and such error has permeated our 1st born being: it has to be renewed into the one true doctrine formed from Scripture despite the world and our bodies that comes against such! Love, Steven
 

[George]

8 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Yes, the concepts are difficult that is why I align closest with compatibilism.

Probably the closest to the truth for sure!  When a positional view is either / or -- then we often find the truth lies between!  

[Flsnookman]

Not to start up the debate here, but one of the wisest men I know once told me that free will/predestination were like standing on the railroad tracks and looking off in the distance, though the tracks are separate they become one. I guess I just think it is two sides of the same coin. Many will say that can not be but I believe just because we can not understand a thing does not make it untrue. I think this also holds true for almost every doctrinal argument we see everywhere. Saying 'my understanding of the unknowable is better than yours" is kind of ironic in a way. Meh, just my 2 cents.

[enoob57]

All thought arena 'of thought' on this subject has given a place 'to lie' and there simply is no place for
it... as with any  thought process anything built upon a fallacy you can only arrive at added fallacy.
A Loving God fully fulfilling  1Cor 13 in substance throughout creation leaves us with the
understanding that only one place of keeping for the eternally built yet self absorbed in total rebellion
can only be hell- as total separation from God except through His wrath... As this fulfills The Love of
God toward such 'they have themselves as god' and all they could have had in God they have denied
themselves in self absorption ... Love, Steven

[enoob57]

15 minutes ago, Flsnookman said:

Not to start up the debate here, but one of the wisest men I know once told me that free will/predestination were like standing on the railroad tracks and looking off in the distance, though the tracks are separate they become one. I guess I just think it is two sides of the same coin. Many will say that can not be but I believe just because we can not understand a thing does not make it untrue. I think this also holds true for almost every doctrinal argument we see everywhere. Saying 'my understanding of the unknowable is better than yours" is kind of ironic in a way. Meh, just my 2 cents.

I agree there is a place in all of Scripture where it will supersede our s/Spiritual abilities and we
are to wait upon our Lord for increase before continuing... waiting is the humiliation that brings
us into bond with God forming  this within -if You (God) do not supply I 'will' to wait here till
You do~ for error is all else I am in! Love, Steven