Guest shiloh357 Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 8 minutes ago, Ezra said: Which means that mainstream Reformed Theology has departed from its own Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter III Of God's Eternal Decree I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3] If God ordains "whatsoever comes to pass" He ordains all the sin and evil in the world, notwithstanding the disclaimer which shows how ridiculous that concept is. Uh, no, it says that God is not the author of sin in what you quoted. No, it appears to me that you are trying to force a meaning on that statement that they don't intend, which is the basis of why it adds that disclaimer. They knew that without the disclaimer they would be accused of saying that God authors sin. To reject that disclaimer and impose onto it the statement the value that YOU want it to have is unfair and you would not want someone to do that to you if you tried to clarify a position so as not to be misunderstood. They took the pains to clarify what they meant by "whatsoever comes to pass." They were not talking about moral evil (sin). While I disagree with most everything in that chapter, I will be fair and accept their qualification of "whatsoever." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted August 26, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,137 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,433 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Author Share Posted August 26, 2016 RC Sproul on youtube said emphatically He doesn't know where it (evil) came from ... which I do not understand if it didn't come from God as God's Word claims then the father of it Lucifer has to be source. I do believe it is not a created source but -thus- it's whole origin is perversion in lie. The perpetuation came thru satan's use of position and attributes God gave to him to increase the glory of God as witness to the son's of God (angels) before the throne... what in Scripture would prevent Sproul from taking this position I do not know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted August 29, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,137 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,433 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Author Share Posted August 29, 2016 Butero has shown error 2 Samuel 24:1-2 he claims God is moving David ... 1 Chron 21:1-2 21 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. 2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beer-sheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it. KJV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted August 29, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 29, 2016 On 8/25/2016 at 5:07 PM, shiloh357 said: Uh, no, it says that God is not the author of sin in what you quoted. "Whatsoever comes to pass" includes all the sin and evil in the world. There's no dodging it, even though the attempt to dodge it is made right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted August 29, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 29, 2016 On 8/25/2016 at 8:57 PM, enoob57 said: RC Sproul on youtube said emphatically He doesn't know where it (evil) came from ... which I do not understand As I point out above, that is a dodge, because if you follow Reformed Theology to its logical conclusion, they make God ultimately responsible for sin and evil. But if Sproul was honest and said that openly, his audience would know how erroneous their doctrine is, and would stop listening to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted August 29, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,137 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,433 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Author Share Posted August 29, 2016 3 hours ago, Ezra said: As I point out above, that is a dodge, because if you follow Reformed Theology to its logical conclusion, they make God ultimately responsible for sin and evil. But if Sproul was honest and said that openly, his audience would know how erroneous their doctrine is, and would stop listening to him. Well I still don't understand how in the simplicity of the statement of God in Gen 1:31-2:3 whereby all that has creation summarized in this was sanctified by God as very good... there is no room for bad anywhere in this witness of God to us!!! One thing about God I've learned He does not need us to aid Him in His sovereignty one iota... He simply 'IS' and there is nothing created like Him for He alone The Self Existent One and all else exists for His Good Pleasure... Isa 46:10 Ezek 33:11 11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? KJV It certainly is not hard to reason here with God - that if there exists a no pleasure within God it did not come through created effect but that which is outside of created essence >as a perversion of< formed in a non-created substance called lie... thus why hell was created: Matt 25:41 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: KJV It is like I teach my children Lucifer knew he had begin just like all that has began -yet- he formed the lie within himself that he could be God... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted August 30, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 30, 2016 4 hours ago, enoob57 said: Well I still don't understand how in the simplicity of the statement of God in Gen 1:31-2:3 whereby all that has creation summarized in this was sanctified by God as very good... there is no room for bad anywhere in this witness of God to us!!! Absolutely. Lucifer sought to be God, if not more than God. Thus sin (which is essentially rebellion) came into existence. And Satan is clearly identified by his Hebrew name -- ha Satan -- as the Adversary, hence the source of all evil. God cannot -- and never will -- decree evil. But He does tolerate it "for a season". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 On 8/29/2016 at 1:59 PM, Ezra said: "Whatsoever comes to pass" includes all the sin and evil in the world. There's no dodging it, even though the attempt to dodge it is made right there. But they qualify what they mean by that. You seem to want them to hold them to a straw man you concocted just to have something to knock down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted September 10, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,137 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,433 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Author Share Posted September 10, 2016 The effort must be made in the identification of what sin is (created or non-created)... as it is the effort of the created to be what creation would or could not allow becomes the issue. In the eternity there exists God in all His infinite plumage as good so defined by God and parameter-ed-ing- God's 'IS' without boundary ... Now negate this reality (how)? This was Lucifer's first effort to separate himself from the 'IS' and in so doing fathered in himself non-creation lie. An attribute totally dependent upon truth to exist... a self evident truth to truth is that it must first be in order for 'IS' to be and all else is there upon dependent to the initial 'IS' which id as 'IS' = 'I AM THAT I AM'... When one releases themselves to truth the lie must be reckoned as dead for this 'IS' the truth unbounded in The 'All of God' The 'IS'... Stationing one's self to this foundation all else must be built upon this only with truth as 'IS' The Christ's work in salvation. Although the picture of creation from begin to end is large it is not the infinite of 'IS' and sin is a self sealing finite act of rebellion that was judged even before it began as not 'IS'. The power that satan wields in the creation is to replace 'IS' with is and it is to make idol anything within his acquisition thru fall of man that God rightfully cursed... That process was that which began in Lucifer when he extoled the created things of himself more than the Creator and his desperation to change the is in himself from 'IS' of eternity... it simply cannot be done and those set free here see it as so. the full parameter of this verse can now be understood: Revelation 20:11 (KJV) [11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them This is why before this time God has written to us here to be obedient for this 'IS' Ephesians 4:27 (KJV) [27] Neither give place to the devil. Notice the garment flees away as it is only a garment= heaven and earth - a stage if you will whereby life as a identity in itself was placed... sin is the loss of this identity life so the 'IS' of God for eternity... Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Robert Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 He can't: God's laws come from His own heart and being. He isn't going to ask us to do what He himself would not do. Proof of that is Jesus Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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