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1st and 2nd Seal Opened? How can we know?


Diaste

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11 hours ago, Diaste said:

The reason I went down this road is because I seem to see in scripture the beast rising at the first seal. This is why I'm wondering if the first seal has been opened and how we could know. It seems like we should be able to know as it's right there in Rev 4. Why even bring it up if we could not know with a certainty the time is now, or soon to come? If the rider of the first seal is the beast he cannot be unseen as it's clear there is a rider and he exhibits certain behaviors. He has a crown, that's not a covert characteristic. It's also obvious he has some type of power that's visible as there is a bow, which is not unseen either. If he is unseen the behaviors should be seen at the least or we could never know the first seal was open, something we are told is going to happen by the Lord Himself.

Well, there's a lot that goes on in the supernatural realm that we can't see that is "more real" than the temporary things we do see.

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12 hours ago, Diaste said:

What I read is far different from what you posit. The seals, trumps and bowls are not consecutive. They open, sound and pour in a concurrently successive linearity culminating at or near the the same time/space moment.  In other words, "It's all happening at once, more or less." There's a lot to post in this area so I'm not going into it here. Maybe we could take to another discussion? Both the beast and the false prophet are individuals empowered by Satan as the counterfeits. It's entirely possible, and likely, the beast is mortally wounded, is then in the abyss, and Satan is allowed to raise him from the dead and empower him. 

When people try to rationalize out the Book of the Revelation, relying upon their left-brain thinking, they collectively end up with all of the different theories such as yours, with no base for any common understanding.

When people (few indeed) come to realize that all of Revelation has already been recorded in the Old Testament beforehand, written in the very acts of the Israelite people, God's messengers, then they do have a base of common understanding. This is right-brain thinking, in which the whole pattern is revealed. It is the difference between seeing the forest as a whole, versus seeing all of the different trees in the forest, and trying to extrapolate the meaning of "forest" from those individual trees. As you are trying to do.

Everything about the coming Kingdom of God upon earth is revealed in the history of the transition of the Kingdom from David to his son Solomon. Everything about the coming Judgment of God, and ascent of the elect to heavenly Mount Zion, is revealed in the era of the Exodus up through Joshua 10.

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The problem with people reading the book of Revelation is that they often spiritualize it or give the words their own meaning. There are figures of speech in the book of Revelation but they are obvious.

 

uestion: "How can I understand the Book of Revelation?"

Answer:
The key to Bible interpretation, especially for the book of Revelation, is to have a consistent hermeneutic. Hermeneutics is the study of the principles of interpretation. In other words, it is the way you interpret Scripture. A normal hermeneutic or normal interpretation of Scripture means that unless the verse or passage clearly indicates the author was using figurative language, it should be understood in its normal sense. We are not to look for other meanings if the natural meaning of the sentence makes sense. Also, we are not to spiritualize Scripture by assigning meanings to words or phrases when it is clear the author, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, meant it to be understood as it is written.

One example is Revelation 20. Many will assign various meanings to references to a thousand-year period. Yet, the language does not imply in any way that the references to the thousand years should be taken to mean anything other than a literal period of one thousand years.

A simple outline for the book of Revelation is found in Revelation 1:19. In the first chapter, the risen and exalted Christ is speaking to John. Christ tells John to “write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.” The things John had already seen are recorded in chapter 1. The “things which are” (that were present in John's day) are recorded in chapters 2–3 (the letters to the churches). The “things that will take place” (future things) are recorded in chapters 4–22.

Generally speaking, chapters 4–18 of Revelation deal with God's judgments on the people of the earth. These judgments are not for the church (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 9). Before the judgments begin, the church will have been removed from the earth in an event called the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Chapters 4–18 describe a time of “Jacob's trouble”—trouble for Israel (Jeremiah 30:7; Daniel 9:12, 12:1). It is also a time when God will judge unbelievers for their rebellion against Him.

Chapter 19 describes Christ's return with the church, the bride of Christ. He defeats the beast and the false prophet and casts them into the lake of fire. In Chapter 20, Christ has Satan bound and cast in the Abyss. Then Christ sets up His kingdom on earth that will last 1000 years. At the end of the 1000 years, Satan is released and he leads a rebellion against God. He is quickly defeated and also cast into the lake of fire. Then the final judgment occurs, the judgment for all unbelievers, when they too are cast into the lake of fire.

Chapters 21 and 22 describe what is referred to as the eternal state. In these chapters God tells us what eternity with Him will be like. The book of Revelation is understandable. God would not have given it to us if its meaning were entirely a mystery. The key to understanding the book of Revelation is to interpret it as literally as possible—it says what it means and means what it says.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Book-Revelation.html

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22 hours ago, WilliamL said:

When people try to rationalize out the Book of the Revelation, relying upon their left-brain thinking, they collectively end up with all of the different theories such as yours, with no base for any common understanding.

When people (few indeed) come to realize that all of Revelation has already been recorded in the Old Testament beforehand, written in the very acts of the Israelite people, God's messengers, then they do have a base of common understanding. This is right-brain thinking, in which the whole pattern is revealed. It is the difference between seeing the forest as a whole, versus seeing all of the different trees in the forest, and trying to extrapolate the meaning of "forest" from those individual trees. As you are trying to do.

Everything about the coming Kingdom of God upon earth is revealed in the history of the transition of the Kingdom from David to his son Solomon. Everything about the coming Judgment of God, and ascent of the elect to heavenly Mount Zion, is revealed in the era of the Exodus up through Joshua 10.

Nice. Even if what you say is true(not saying it is) it doesn't negate proper reading and comprehension. I know there are dozens of prophecies about the end of the age in the OT and in fact the plan is revealed in Genesis. End from the beginning and all that...But none of this was the question, nor what I posted, which you ignored, a common attribute in your replies to those who see something different than you. 

But lets get to the proof.

Rev 6

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth,as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Rev 11

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voicesin heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
    the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
    and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
    and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
    and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
    both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.

Rev 16

17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 21 From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds,[a] fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.

The similar descriptions are in bold above. Now to me it sure reads like the 6th seal, the 7th trump, and the 7th bowl are all the same events. Unless you are saying that the islands and mountains fled away or were not found on two separate occasions. You're not saying that are you?

Maybe you're saying there was a great or severe hailstorm on two separate occasions? Ok, I can allow for that, a distinct possibility exists. But two great or severe hailstorms accompanied by: flashes of lightning, peals of thunder and a great earthquake? And associated with what is apparently the wrath of God, as the loud voice says, "It is done." at the seventh bowl, and the time of wrath is so named at the 7th trumpet?  I don't think that's gonna fly. 

Maybe you're saying that the wrath of God comes on two separate occasions? The 6th seal is clearly the sign of the coming of the Son of Man when Jesus metes out the wrath of God. But the wrath of God is also in Rev 11:18 at the 7th trump "18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come." "The time has come for judging the dead,  and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small and for destroying those who destroy the earth.” No better overview of the time of wrath exists. Are you saying the wrath of God occurs twice and on separate occasions?

So the time of wrath has come at the 7th Trump. and Jesus is bringing the wrath of God at the 6th seal. Obviously these two harbingers occur pretty close in time or are related to each other as we know this from the 6th seal; Rev 6, "17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” This shows the 6th seal and the 7th trump are both the moment of the wrath of God. Interesting to note is the pronoun 'thier' in Rev 6:17. This means the wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God are coming at the same time. Which supports the conclusion that the 6th seal and the 7th trump occur in conjunction. And if that's the case then the 7th bowl also occurs in conjunction with the other two. Even if they do not occur at the exact same moment all three converge at the end. This would remove a consecutive interpretation and beg a co-linearity understanding. As an aside, it would seem seals are opened and trumpets are blowing in conjunction. The bowls are poured out much closer to the end, in rapid succession, maybe even all at once. In any case there is no basis for a consecutive understanding of the occurrence of the harbingers.

Now you can continue to disparage my mental acuity if you like. The above is scripture with emphasis on common attributes of the omens of the end of the age, not my opinion.

So do you see the first two seals as already open? If so, how can we know? If not, is there a way to know they are coming sooner or later?

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25 minutes ago, Diaste said:

But lets get to the proof.

Rev 6

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth,as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Rev 11

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voicesin heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
    the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
    and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
    and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
    and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
    both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.

Rev 16

17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 21 From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds,[a] fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.

The similar descriptions are in bold above. Now to me it sure reads like the 6th seal, the 7th trump, and the 7th bowl are all the same events. Unless you are saying that the islands and mountains fled away or were not found on two separate occasions. You're not saying that are you?

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. In the Exodus era, three separate great earthquake events took place: at Mount Sinai, at Korah's rebellion, and at Joshua's long day. Those three events of the past are types and shadows of the three separate earthquake events in Rev. 6, Rev. 11, and Rev. 16, respectively. They represented the spirit/ruach-level, nephesh/soul-level, and flesh/basar-level judgments of God which took place then, and will take place again, in the same order.

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6 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. In the Exodus era, three separate great earthquake events took place: at Mount Sinai, at Korah's rebellion, and at Joshua's long day. Those three events of the past are types and shadows of the three separate earthquake events in Rev. 6, Rev. 11, and Rev. 16, respectively. They represented the spirit/ruach-level, nephesh/soul-level, and flesh/basar-level judgments of God which took place then, and will take place again, in the same order.

So you are saying the islands and mountains fled away, or were not found, then God remade them, put them back in their places, and then destroyed them again? And that God did this twice so he could destroy them three times?

Post scripture that says this is going to happen and I'll change my mind.

Cause one would think that if we were going to witness such a cataclysmic creative act, something would be written about it. 

And what about the questions in the OP? Care to weigh in? Maybe you did and I missed the post?

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3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. In the Exodus era, three separate great earthquake events took place: at Mount Sinai, at Korah's rebellion, and at Joshua's long day. Those three events of the past are types and shadows of the three separate earthquake events in Rev. 6, Rev. 11, and Rev. 16, respectively. They represented the spirit/ruach-level, nephesh/soul-level, and flesh/basar-level judgments of God which took place then, and will take place again, in the same order.

So you are saying the islands and mountains fled away, or were not found, then God remade them, put them back in their places, and then destroyed them again? And that God did this twice so he could destroy them three times?

Post scripture that says this is going to happen and I'll change my mind.

Cause one would think that if we were going to witness such a cataclysmic creative act, something would be written about it. 

And what about the questions in the OP? Care to weigh in? Maybe you did and I missed the post?

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On 8/24/2016 at 6:35 AM, Last Daze said:

Well, there's a lot that goes on in the supernatural realm that we can't see that is "more real" than the temporary things we do see.

And I agree. I still think we are supposed to be able to discern the time of or near the opening of the 1st seal. I'm betting there's an event that signals the time. Like maybe a deadly head wound that's healed. 

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54 minutes ago, Diaste said:

And I agree. I still think we are supposed to be able to discern the time of or near the opening of the 1st seal. I'm betting there's an event that signals the time. Like maybe a deadly head wound that's healed. 

I guess it depends on how you envision things happening.  I see the U.N., the globalization push, the assault on truth, and a global economy as events that are conquering and evidence that the first seal has been opened.  I don't think its any big deal that the leader of all this is a spiritual being.  Its a spiritual cause and natural effect.

The fact that the feet of iron and clay world kingdom is here is reason enough for me to see that the gospel has been preached worldwide and that the end time events have been set in motion, the first of which is the opening of the first seal.

But, again, it depends on how you see thing.

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5 hours ago, Diaste said:
5 hours ago, WilliamL said:

In the Exodus era, three separate great earthquake events took place: at Mount Sinai, at Korah's rebellion, and at Joshua's long day. Those three events of the past are types and shadows of the three separate earthquake events in Rev. 6, Rev. 11, and Rev. 16, respectively. They represented the spirit/ruach-level, nephesh/soul-level, and flesh/basar-level judgments of God which took place then, and will take place again, in the same order.

So you are saying the islands and mountains fled away, or were not found, then God remade them, put them back in their places, and then destroyed them again? And that God did this twice so he could destroy them three times?

Post scripture that says this is going to happen and I'll change my mind.

Cause one would think that if we were going to witness such a cataclysmic creative act, something would be written about it. 

And what about the questions in the OP? Care to weigh in? Maybe you did and I missed the post?

Types and shadows are just that. You keep adding your presumptions both to the Word and to what I write. In Rev. 6, the islands are 'moved out of their places': whereas in Rev. 16 they are 'fled away": two different things. Although both events are related to earthquakes, they are not the same quakes, just as they, in their types during the Exodus era, were different quakes. An island that is moved is by no means destroyed, as you presume the text implies.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

...I still think we are supposed to be able to discern the time of or near the opening of the 1st seal. I'm betting there's an event that signals the time. Like maybe a deadly head wound that's healed. 

I see the Abomination of Desolation as being the event that brings on the opening of all the Seals.

The type during the Exodus era was when the Destroyer killed the god Horus, son of Pharaoh, in his temple-palace, thus defiling it with a corpse. From that point on, all the types of the Seals ensued.

The type during the First Coming was when Judas threw the pagan blood-money into the naos/sanctuary/Holy Place, thus defiling it.

The Abomination of Desolation will likewise defile the Holy Place, bringing on all of the Seals.

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