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1st and 2nd Seal Opened? How can we know?


Diaste

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I don't know the answers. I think it's something we can know because it's in the Revelation. It's probably something we should know since Jesus told us, and it's the beginning of all that comes after.

Have we seen the first two seals opened?

Is the conquer of the 1st seal a worldwide force immediately? Or does he just begin to conquer and build dominance over time?  Could that be happening now, in 2016? Has that been occurring for a period of time already? Will this conqueror dominate through military or political power? Wealth? Better social policies? All of the above? Something else?

Is the 2nd seal an immediate and total worldwide phenomenon? Is peace going to be taken increments over time? Is this going on now? Has this been going on? Will peace being taken from the earth be the result of war? Terrorism? Alien invasion? Something else?

From what I see these conditions are in effect now, today, and growing in influence. But does that mean the seals have been opened, or are we seeing what might be initial action before the full operation begins?

D.

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45 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I don't know the answers. I think it's something we can know because it's in the Revelation. It's probably something we should know since Jesus told us, and it's the beginning of all that comes after.

Have we seen the first two seals opened?

Is the conquer of the 1st seal a worldwide force immediately? Or does he just begin to conquer and build dominance over time?  Could that be happening now, in 2016? Has that been occurring for a period of time already? Will this conqueror dominate through military or political power? Wealth? Better social policies? All of the above? Something else?

Is the 2nd seal an immediate and total worldwide phenomenon? Is peace going to be taken increments over time? Is this going on now? Has this been going on? Will peace being taken from the earth be the result of war? Terrorism? Alien invasion? Something else?

From what I see these conditions are in effect now, today, and growing in influence. But does that mean the seals have been opened, or are we seeing what might be initial action before the full operation begins?

D.

I come from the perspective that the opening of the seals takes place after the gospel has been preached worldwide and that their opening brings forth events that culminate in the return of Christ, on the day of the Lord, at the seventh trumpet.

The first seal, as I see it, is the release of the evil (the beast) from the abyss.  He conquers covertly through deception while setting the stage for the appearance of the false prophet.

The second seal is when peace is removed.  I see the initial event here as the destruction of NYC, or whichever city the 10 leaders decide to destroy.  This brings about wars and rumors of war which leads to the supernatural rise of the false prophet as he destroys 3 of the 10 and reestablishes order.  The third seal, food shortage, is a consequence of the second seal.  The fourth seal sets the limit of the war.

Based on that, I believe the first seal has been opened and the second has not.  The rationale for the first seal being opened and the evil angel being released is the emergence of the Daniel 2 feet of iron and clay U.N. "kingdom", the establishing of Israel as a state by U.N. resolution, the prominence of globalization, compromising churches, etc.

When the second seal is opened and the 10 horns decide to implement their new world order and destroy the city which reigns over the kings of the earth, then the birth pangs begin in earnest.

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1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Is the conquer of the 1st seal a worldwide force immediately? Or does he just begin to conquer and build dominance over time?  Could that be happening now, in 2016? Has that been occurring for a period of time already? Will this conqueror dominate through military or political power? Wealth? Better social policies? All of the above? Something else?

Good question.

A little study of mine, which I will share here:

Breaking the seal and the calling out unleashes a character acting autonomously.  As each Horseman is called out, the pattern is repeated and another Living Creature in order says the very same; “Come!”  This also suggests some attributes that can be applied to the Horsemen by the nature of the creature that summons them.

            The Living Creatures order the Horsemen out in sequential fashion as well.  The faces of the four Living Creatures are: "lion," "ox," "man," and a "flying eagle."   These are the heavenly Creatures sheltering God, and thus they suggest qualities that belong to God.  One commentary suggests they represent the qualities of royal power, strength, spirituality, and swiftness of action.—EBCNT  If the Living Creatures represent these qualities, then the forces sent out mirror those attributes: power through knowledge, strength of might, human spirit, and rapidity in effect. 

Rev 6:2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

            The first seal poses the most problems for interpretation.  While the symbols are known, their application can be considered in two contrary manners.  The initial assessment of the first seal is that it is has no known correlation within the Bible.  Comparisons to Christ are incomplete but noted for the white horse, and the crown.  In the aspect of this horseman being representative of the Church, the weapon of war and conquest are incongruent.  In the opposing aspect, this is said to be a description of the false Christ.  The lion, the symbol of royalty, power, and might does the calling which lends additional support to a powerful conqueror-king.

The first Horseman is given a bow, a kingly weapon of power.  A bow is the only weapon that allows one to kill at a distance in this era.  He does not have any arrows to fire though, so this bow is not meant as a literal weapon of war, but a symbol of power.  This analogy of the bow to power is supported in the Bible. 

JOB 29:20My glory will remain fresh in me,

the bow ever new in my hand.'

 

JOB 30:11 Now that God has unstrung my bow and afflicted me,

they throw off restraint in my presence.

 

JER 49:35This is what the LORD Almighty says:

"See, I will break the bow of Elam,

the mainstay of their might.

So the bow can be thought of as the ability to project his power, but not necessarily conquering as with war. 

            The second issue is the crown.  This signifies victory, and accomplishment.  So the force that makes war possible does succeed without firing a shot.  Along with the crown is the color white.  This third aspect signifies goodness but also is the color of a victor.  So this first Horseman must be seen as beneficial, or desirable on one hand, and victorious on the other.  As a force, it can be expected to be able to project its power through its autonomous actions. 

            Two people the first Horseman is commonly thought to represent are the anti-Christ and Jesus.  These two wildly conflicting extremes of interpretation can both be nullified.  First, as the point of unsealing the Scroll is to unleash God’s Wrath upon the desolator from Daniel 9:27, to put the anti-Christ as the first Horseman has him participating in his own demise.  Logically, this would be like God sending out Pharaoh to be obstinate.  In that account, God hardened what naturally occurred in Pharaoh’s heart.  And from the point of view of the desolator, he could also foil God’s plan by failing to perform the task for which he was designated: to conquer. 

From 2nd Thessalonians 2:7, the “one” blocks the anti-Christ from acting in his normal manner.  This one must be removed from the midst before the anti-Christ can act freely.  That is not part of the command here.  In addition, in Revelation 13:5 the anti-Christ is given authority for a limited time.  Both passages suggest a holding back of the anti-Christ with his natural disposition against God until a certain time, whereas the first Horseman is sent immediately out to do his role.  For the first identifiable person that this first Horseman could represent, the anti-Christ should be eliminated from consideration.  He is not “sent” by God.

The other interpretation has Christ as the first Horseman.  If Christ’s coming is indicated by the first Horseman, then with Jesus as the Lamb opening the Seal, He is effectively doubled.  Jesus cannot both break the Seal and come out from behind the Seal.  While Christ’s coming presages the rapture, to view the first Seal as representing this presents a contradiction in real terms because there is only one Christ.

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REV 6:4Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.

 

            The second Horseman represents war.  The second through fourth horsemen are not in much contention as to their meaning.  Each can also be thought as being the natural outcome of the previous one.  This would support an argument for interpretation in sequential fashion, and keeping with the linear aspect of having the seals numbered as well.  In the matter of war, the 20th century stands as a testament to war, being the bloodiest century of man's history with more people dying than any other with the total count well over 100 million dead.  Like the ox, the second living creature, it is a powerful force able to plow through resistance.

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Leaving out some more work, I'll just get to my conclusion:

The First Horseman, or Spirit, goes to work in the West as was shown in Zechariah.  As a force that makes war possible working in the West, Western countries have been the leader in producing weapons of war that have unprecedented destructiveness.  Indeed without the modern Capitalistic system that makes the Military-Industrial complex possible the West would not be able to wage its war on Terrorism and try to bring peace and safety to the world.  Even Communist China has adopted Capitalism as a means to gain military and economic strength without a shot being fired.  The idea of Capitalism as the vehicle that propelled the industrial revolution of the nineteenth century as a force to make war in the twentieth century possible could fit.  As a false Messiah, people do worship Mammon.  And some seek security in it.  In commenting on politics, one JFK campaign manager speaking of Joe Kennedy said “his money could work miracles” — (PBS series on the Kennedy’s). 

A conclusion here is that the first Horseman is not a person.  It is a Spirit which is at work in the world.  The supposition here is that the first Horseman is manifested in the economic system which has revolutionized the world.  Indeed, a system of economics has sprung up, propelled by men throughout a century as first an idea, and then a working concept until such time as it has thoroughly enveloped the world.  It is not a coincidence that Communist China, in its war against the Capitalistic West, has been felled into being the most Capitalistic nation on the face of the earth and that it did so without a single shot (arrow) being fired.  One system of economics has conquered the world; and people do place their trust in it: Capitalism allows people to live without depending on God.  Thus, this system is also a type of anti-Christ and at the same time it paves the way for the second Spirit which induces war on a scale never seen before.

A final interpretation of the first Horseman eludes a definite answer.  The conclusion here might be controversial, and it certainly will not end the debate, however, any rendering to the meaning of the First Horseman must include the characteristic of appearing good or being victorious as in white, the ability to project power with the bow, the act of triumph or headship with the crown, the claim to be able to save, and to be able to deceive many.  As a sequence of Spirits or forces whereby one makes a condition favorable for the next, and so conditions the world for the climatic events of the seventieth ‘seven,’ this first Horseman should have some attribute that accomplishes the fermentation of war too. 

What is proposed here is that the aspect of Capitalism with the earth-changing Industrial Revolution fits all the necessary pieces of prophecy.  Capitalism is seen by many as a white knight, which acts as a sort of savior, but in the context of Christianity; it is an anti-Christ.  Any person or thing in whom a person places trust for their safety, such as a 401K plan, is an anti-Christ and there are many in this world.  Some people place their trust in government... But as a system which has taken over the world, conquering Red China without as so much as a shot being fired, Capitalism is a conqueror. 

As such, Capitalism with its attendant Industrial Revolution, marks an historic event that has propelled the world into a new era far different than the millennia of agriculture known before and dependence upon the land for all people, and so has prepared the world in a manner which is necessary for the sixth head of Satan to assume total control.  Without industry which changed rural family life and broke up the family, without the concentration of people in cities which fostered diverse political systems to control the populations, without the resultant technology which has brought about the Information Age: the one ‘seven’ could not have the anti-Christ exert total control.  The basic conclusion here is that the events of the end-times not only cannot happen until the beginning of birth pains ensued, but they could not happen without these four conditions first coming to fruition upon the earth as a prerequisite.

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1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Leaving out some more work, I'll just get to my conclusion:

The First Horseman, or Spirit, goes to work in the West as was shown in Zechariah.  As a force that makes war possible working in the West, Western countries have been the leader in producing weapons of war that have unprecedented destructiveness.  Indeed without the modern Capitalistic system that makes the Military-Industrial complex possible the West would not be able to wage its war on Terrorism and try to bring peace and safety to the world.  

We know that the opening of the seals begins at a certain point in time.

  • After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”  Revelation 4:1

What do you consider "these things" to be which must occur before the opening of the seals?

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34 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

What do you consider "these things" to be which must occur before the opening of the seals?

After these things is said twice, once by John and next by presumably Jesus - and reading the demonstrative adjective "these" as referencing the last thing to happen would be the visions of the Churches.  "These things" refers to that in the text.  I know of no other way to read the reference.

At the inception of the Church in the first century A.D., the first revelation is that there are seven Church types, and the first vision John receives adds meaning to a like vision that Zechariah saw of a lampstand with seven lights in his book: 4:1-3.

The Churches come first, and I consider each to be fully in existence from their inception, but also being a demonstration in the order in which they are presented as a predominant type of Church as so many others have suggested the Church has changed over the centuries.

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By reading this it is very obvious to me that we have not experienced any of the seal judgments. It won't happen until after the rapture of the Church and that has not happened yet.

Question: "What are the seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven bowls (vials) in the Book of Revelation?"

Answer:
The seven seals (Revelation 6:1-17, 8:1-5), seven trumpets (Revelation 8:6-13; 11:15-19), and seven bowls/vials (Revelation 16:1-21) are three succeeding series of end-times judgments from God. The judgments get progressively worse and more devastating as the end times progress. The seven seals, trumpets, and bowls are connected to one another. The seventh seal introduces the seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-5), and the seventh trumpet introduces the seven bowls (Revelation 11:15-19, 15:1-8).

The first four of the seven seals are known as the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. The first seal introduces the Antichrist (Revelation 6:1-2). The second seal causes great warfare (Revelation 6:3-4). The third of the seven seals causes famine (Revelation 6:5-6). The fourth seal brings about plague, further famine, and further warfare (Revelation 6:7-8).



The fifth seal tells us of those who will be martyred for their faith in Christ during the end times (Revelation 6:9-11). God hears their cries for justice and will deliver it in His timing—in the form of the sixth seal, along with the trumpet and bowl judgments. When the sixth of the seven seals is broken, a devastating earthquake occurs, causing massive upheaval and terrible devastation—along with unusual astronomical phenomena (Revelation 6:12-14). Those who survive are right to cry out, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” (Revelation 6:16-17).

http://www.gotquestions.org/seven-seals-trumpets.html

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30 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

By reading this it is very obvious to me that we have not experienced any of the seal judgments.

The Bible never speaks of "seal judgments."

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5 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

The Bible never speaks of "seal judgments."

Did you see the Bible verses in the above post ? Those refer to the seal judgments.  Are you amillennial or preterist?

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