Jump to content
IGNORED

1st and 2nd Seal Opened? How can we know?


Diaste

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  16
  • Topic Count:  134
  • Topics Per Day:  0.04
  • Content Count:  8,142
  • Content Per Day:  2.37
  • Reputation:   6,612
  • Days Won:  20
  • Joined:  11/02/2014
  • Status:  Offline

7 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

No, none of the seals have been opened yet. I think the partial preterists believe that.

Futurists understand that the 6th and 7th seals are yet to be opened. But to believe that wars and rumors of wars are in the future would be naive. To believe that famines and pestilences and earthquakes do not exist at present is to be ill-informed. To believe that Death and Hades are not riding around as we speak is to fool ourselves.  Just add up all the recent terrorist attacks around the world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  84
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  3,987
  • Content Per Day:  1.13
  • Reputation:   2,517
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  07/17/2014
  • Status:  Offline

11 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

That does not answer my question. I am not asking about elephants I am asking why are they not judgments.

Since you're the one who wants to change what they are from seals to "judgments" then its up to you to substantiate that they are.   If you can't show for each seal who is doing the judging, who or what is being judged, and what that judgment is, then by definition, you can't refer to them as judgments.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  34
  • Topic Count:  1,989
  • Topics Per Day:  0.49
  • Content Count:  48,687
  • Content Per Day:  11.89
  • Reputation:   30,342
  • Days Won:  226
  • Joined:  01/11/2013
  • Status:  Offline

I think we clearly need enoob's class on hermeneutics on this thread. You guys are not reading the Bible as it was intended to be read. Especially Revelation.

Question: "How can I understand the Book of Revelation?"

Answer:
The key to Bible interpretation, especially for the book of Revelation, is to have a consistent hermeneutic. Hermeneutics is the study of the principles of interpretation. In other words, it is the way you interpret Scripture. A normal hermeneutic or normal interpretation of Scripture means that unless the verse or passage clearly indicates the author was using figurative language, it should be understood in its normal sense. We are not to look for other meanings if the natural meaning of the sentence makes sense. Also, we are not to spiritualize Scripture by assigning meanings to words or phrases when it is clear the author, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, meant it to be understood as it is written.

One example is Revelation 20. Many will assign various meanings to references to a thousand-year period. Yet, the language does not imply in any way that the references to the thousand years should be taken to mean anything other than a literal period of one thousand years.

A simple outline for the book of Revelation is found in Revelation 1:19. In the first chapter, the risen and exalted Christ is speaking to John. Christ tells John to “write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.” The things John had already seen are recorded in chapter 1. The “things which are” (that were present in John's day) are recorded in chapters 2–3 (the letters to the churches). The “things that will take place” (future things) are recorded in chapters 4–22.

Generally speaking, chapters 4–18 of Revelation deal with God's judgments on the people of the earth. These judgments are not for the church (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 9). Before the judgments begin, the church will have been removed from the earth in an event called the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Chapters 4–18 describe a time of “Jacob's trouble”—trouble for Israel (Jeremiah 30:7; Daniel 9:12, 12:1). It is also a time when God will judge unbelievers for their rebellion against Him.

Chapter 19 describes Christ's return with the church, the bride of Christ. He defeats the beast and the false prophet and casts them into the lake of fire. In Chapter 20, Christ has Satan bound and cast in the Abyss. Then Christ sets up His kingdom on earth that will last 1000 years. At the end of the 1000 years, Satan is released and he leads a rebellion against God. He is quickly defeated and also cast into the lake of fire. Then the final judgment occurs, the judgment for all unbelievers, when they too are cast into the lake of fire.

Chapters 21 and 22 describe what is referred to as the eternal state. In these chapters God tells us what eternity with Him will be like. The book of Revelation is understandable. God would not have given it to us if its meaning were entirely a mystery. The key to understanding the book of Revelation is to interpret it as literally as possible—it says what it means and means what it says.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Book-Revelation.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  84
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  3,987
  • Content Per Day:  1.13
  • Reputation:   2,517
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  07/17/2014
  • Status:  Offline

1 minute ago, missmuffet said:

 You guys are not reading the Bible as it was intended to be read. Especially Revelations.

I'm just not interested in the seven elephants of wrath.  When you make stuff up, the sky's the limit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  6
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  129
  • Content Per Day:  0.02
  • Reputation:   48
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  04/10/2009
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  05/10/1968

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't know the answers. I think it's something we can know because it's in the Revelation. It's probably something we should know since Jesus told us, and it's the beginning of all that comes after.

Have we seen the first two seals opened?

Is the conquer of the 1st seal a worldwide force immediately? Or does he just begin to conquer and build dominance over time?  Could that be happening now, in 2016? Has that been occurring for a period of time already? Will this conqueror dominate through military or political power? Wealth? Better social policies? All of the above? Something else?

Is the 2nd seal an immediate and total worldwide phenomenon? Is peace going to be taken increments over time? Is this going on now? Has this been going on? Will peace being taken from the earth be the result of war? Terrorism? Alien invasion? Something else?

From what I see these conditions are in effect now, today, and growing in influence. But does that mean the seals have been opened, or are we seeing what might be initial action before the full operation begins?

D.

 Knowledge is Power. Revelation does not occur in chronological order. The seals, trumps, and vials all happen simultaneously. Events that took place during certain seals happened during certain trumps and vials; for example, the releasing of the first 4 seals is the same event as the 5th and 6th seal. They are the 4 (there are actually 5) kings mentioned in Dan 7:17, the fallen angels. They were released after being bound for a thousand years 9 years before the flood, released as the plagues in Egypt, which are the first 4 trumps  and the first 5 vials - the sixth vial being the drying up of the Euphrates that caused Darius the Mede to conquer Babylon and free the Jews. So, the first 4 seals, trumps 1-6, and vials 1-5 are the same events.

   The beast in the second seal given a great sword was Nebuchadnezzar, given to him by God:

Eze 30:24 And I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and put my sword in his hand: but I will break Pharaoh's arms, and he shall groan before him with the groanings of a deadly wounded man.

Eze 30:25 But I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and the arms of Pharaoh shall fall down; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall put my sword into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall stretch it out upon the land of Egypt.


  The beast in the 1st seal wearing a crown and conquering with a bow was Alexander the Great, known for riding a white horse and fighting with a bow; in fact, all the major players pointed out in the Greek kingdom fought with bows, Gog and Antiochus III the Great, the reason being because all of them is the Prince of Grecia, the fallen angel. 

 Eze 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
Eze 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
   Eze 39:3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
 Eze 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

I rest my case.

Edited by precepts
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  34
  • Topic Count:  1,989
  • Topics Per Day:  0.49
  • Content Count:  48,687
  • Content Per Day:  11.89
  • Reputation:   30,342
  • Days Won:  226
  • Joined:  01/11/2013
  • Status:  Offline

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I'm just not interested in the seven elephants of wrath.  When you make stuff up, the sky's the limit.

Well, the OP states:

1st and 2nd Seal Opened? How can we know?

Well, read the Bible literally for what it is intended. Jesus read the Bible literally so shouldn't we? That way we can discover the truth and what God really wants us to know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  6
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  907
  • Content Per Day:  0.20
  • Reputation:   382
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  11/03/2011
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  07/07/1866

got questions got it wrong again :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

23 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I come from the perspective that the opening of the seals takes place after the gospel has been preached worldwide and that their opening brings forth events that culminate in the return of Christ, on the day of the Lord, at the seventh trumpet.

The first seal, as I see it, is the release of the evil (the beast) from the abyss.  He conquers covertly through deception while setting the stage for the appearance of the false prophet.

The second seal is when peace is removed.  I see the initial event here as the destruction of NYC, or whichever city the 10 leaders decide to destroy.  This brings about wars and rumors of war which leads to the supernatural rise of the false prophet as he destroys 3 of the 10 and reestablishes order.  The third seal, food shortage, is a consequence of the second seal.  The fourth seal sets the limit of the war.

Based on that, I believe the first seal has been opened and the second has not.  The rationale for the first seal being opened and the evil angel being released is the emergence of the Daniel 2 feet of iron and clay U.N. "kingdom", the establishing of Israel as a state by U.N. resolution, the prominence of globalization, compromising churches, etc.

When the second seal is opened and the 10 horns decide to implement their new world order and destroy the city which reigns over the kings of the earth, then the birth pangs begin in earnest.

That's quite the overview. I have heard similar things in the past. I certainly agree the gospel must be preached before the end comes. That's a pretty clear verse. No ambiguity.

I know most think the conqueror will be a covert operative. I used to think the same thing. But I'm not convinced the image of the rider is that of a covert operative. The image we see is a king.  "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer." He's on a white horse, no mention is made of what this person is wearing except the crown. He has a bow but we have no idea if he's holding the bow or wearing it, and he's going about winning. There's a lot of questions here. Does the bow represent military power? I would say yes. The context is of a conqueror so a bow as a symbol of military power is apt in this verse.

What is the rider doing? First, he's conquering. The verse goes a bit further and says, "...to conquer." This conquering is a state of being for the rider. His MO is to take over with the bow, which can only be a reference to strength of arm or military power in this context....

More on this later....

even more it appears to me conquering is his manifest destiny. The rider is wearing a crown astride a white horse. It can be construed the white horse is a symbol of victory over some opponent. White horses often carried the hero, the victorious king, the god figure, into the conquered areas. I think the parallel here is to Jesus riding a white horse and coming in the clouds; the powerful, victorious, god king, hero arriving to secure the victory. It's in the open and there is no doubt about what Jesus and his armies are doing. The rider of the first seal will likely be as unambiguous. 

I'm thinking that some conquering force will be unleashed at the opening of the first seal. Maybe starting small but gaining in influence, if not size, over time, gaining worldwide attention and in the eyes of the followers of this person, he is a king, or a hero and possibly viewed as a god like figure by fanatic acolytes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  34
  • Topic Count:  1,989
  • Topics Per Day:  0.49
  • Content Count:  48,687
  • Content Per Day:  11.89
  • Reputation:   30,342
  • Days Won:  226
  • Joined:  01/11/2013
  • Status:  Offline

7 minutes ago, ENOCH2010 said:

got questions got it wrong again :rolleyes:

Of course you think they have gotten it wrong. There are many websites on the internet that really blast "Got Questions" and think they are wrong. They are all people and ministries that are a cult or false doctrine. I know I have checked it out. Satan loves that because he sure does not want God's true Word to come across to our world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Junior Member
  • Followers:  5
  • Topic Count:  1
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  105
  • Content Per Day:  0.03
  • Reputation:   61
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  12/24/2015
  • Status:  Offline

18 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't know the answers. I think it's something we can know because it's in the Revelation. It's probably something we should know since Jesus told us, and it's the beginning of all that comes after.

Have we seen the first two seals opened?

Is the conquer of the 1st seal a worldwide force immediately? Or does he just begin to conquer and build dominance over time?  Could that be happening now, in 2016? Has that been occurring for a period of time already? Will this conqueror dominate through military or political power? Wealth? Better social policies? All of the above? Something else?

Is the 2nd seal an immediate and total worldwide phenomenon? Is peace going to be taken increments over time? Is this going on now? Has this been going on? Will peace being taken from the earth be the result of war? Terrorism? Alien invasion? Something else?

From what I see these conditions are in effect now, today, and growing in influence. But does that mean the seals have been opened, or are we seeing what might be initial action before the full operation begins?

D.

 

Edited by unworthydude
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...