excuses

[Guest shiloh357]

5 hours ago, Out of the Shadows said:

Reality is not always rosey

Actually it isn't reality.  Most of what you have said doesn't reflect reality.  Most pastors are bi-vocational.  They don't take a salary at the church they serve. They get paid some gas money, but they don't profit from the ministry.  They have another job they work during the week.   Maybe pastors at larger churches take salaries, but over 80% of the mainstream denominational churches in the US have less than 100 members and cannot support a full time pastor.  Some pastors if they get paid, make less than $200.   So the notion that they have to fill the seats to get paid is really not the case for the overwhelming majority.

[Running Gator]

Just now, shiloh357 said:

Actually it isn't reality.  Most of what you have said doesn't reflect reality.  Most pastors are bi-vocational.  They don't take a salary at the church they serve. They get paid some gas money, but they don't profit from the ministry.  They have another job they work during the week.   Maybe pastors at larger churches take salaries, but over 80% of the mainstream denominational churches in the US have less than 100 members and cannot support a full time pastor.  Some pastors if they get paid, make less than $200.   So the notion that they have to fill the seats to get paid is really not the case for the overwhelming majority.

Do you have some support for this stat?

[missmuffet]

People who choose to attend a Church should not get so defensive and judgmental towards those who do not.

[Guest shiloh357]

20 minutes ago, Out of the Shadows said:

Do you have some support for this stat?

I read about it in a book on church decline back in 2012 at a university library.   And that number may have gone up or down.   But I live in city of 550,000 and less than 10% attend church.  A local pastor did a survey of the mainline churches in our city limits and literally called every church in town to ask about their average attendance.  According to his survey, the majority (I don't remember the exact number) has less than half of their membership in attendance and many had members that they hadn't seen in years.  The pastor asked them how many their churches could seat without breaking the fire codes and since he was a math major in college, he crunched the numbers and realized and compared with other statistics that had similar findings.  Our city is the most unchurched city in our state.

Part of it is because God has become irrelevant.  Liberal pastors have told their people for years that the Bible gets it wrong on so many things, that people stop going to church because they see God and the Bible is meaningless and irrelevant.  Why go to church to study a book they don't feel they can trust?  That's a fair question.

I know lots of people who had jobs that kept them out of church for years.  When they switched jobs and had Sundays off, they still didn't go.   Once you get out of the habit of church, it is the hardest thing to get back into.  Lot's of people try, but just can't seem to get back in the groove.

Or, you have the people who think their too spiritual to go to church, who can't stand be around the hypocrites at church, even though they don't mind the hypocrites at the bar or at sporting events.  It's just the hypocrites at church that force them to stay home.

People says that they can worship God at the lake or on the golf course or in their truck.   Does anyone really believe that?  They claim it, but they don't worship God at all. 

Worship isn't an event.  Worship is a lifestyle.  Worship reflects a life of not only obedience but of a dependence on God and willingness to be community with others as God expects us to do. 

[Running Gator]

8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

 

People says that they can worship God at the lake or on the golf course or in their truck.   Does anyone really believe that?  They claim it, but they don't worship God at all. 

Worship isn't an event.  Worship is a lifestyle.  Worship reflects a life of not only obedience but of a dependence on God and willingness to be community with others as God expects us to do. 

You are contradicting yourself here.  If, as you say, worship is a lifestyle and not an event, then why would you not believe that people can, and do, worship God at the lake, or in the truck or wherever?   Person does not have to sit in a building 3 times a week while someone tells them what the bible says to be in community with others.  I spend more time around fellow believers than most people I know that go to church every time the doors are open, because that is the only time they spend time with believers.   The Americanized version of church is not condusive to fellowship or community. 

[FresnoJoe]

10 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

 

Or, you have the people who think their too spiritual to go to church, who can't stand be around the hypocrites at church, even though they don't mind the hypocrites at the bar or at sporting events.  It's just the hypocrites at church that force them to stay home.

People says that they can worship God at the lake or on the golf course or in their truck.   Does anyone really believe that?  They claim it, but they don't worship God at all. 

Worship isn't an event.  Worship is a lifestyle.  Worship reflects a life of not only obedience but of a dependence on God and willingness to be community with others as God expects us to do. 

While There

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

Is Still Time Left

Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Ephesians 5:14-21

Beloved, Please Do Not Walk Away

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. John 15:3-5

From The LORD Your God

But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Jude 1:20

Even If The Sanctuary

Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.

But Solomon built him an house. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord:
or what is the place of my rest?

Hath not my hand made all these things? Acts 7:44-50

Chews Gum

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. John 17:20-23

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest shiloh357]

3 hours ago, Out of the Shadows said:

You are contradicting yourself here.  If, as you say, worship is a lifestyle and not an event, then why would you not believe that people can, and do, worship God at the lake, or in the truck or wherever?   Person does not have to sit in a building 3 times a week while someone tells them what the bible says to be in community with others.  I spend more time around fellow believers than most people I know that go to church every time the doors are open, because that is the only time they spend time with believers.   The Americanized version of church is not condusive to fellowship or community. 

I am not contradicting anything.   I know people who, for whatever reason, cannot attend services and so they do have personal worship at home or where ever, because meeting with other believers is not an option, not because they choose to forego services.  

There is a difference between people who worship at home because they are physically unable to go to church and people who claim to "worship" at home or at the lake or on the golf course as an excuse not to go, when anyone with any commonsense knows they don't worship God at all at the lake or the golf course.

A person who has a deep abiding relationship with God would see no reason to not go to Church and would want to be in community with other believers and would want to share in the mission of the Church. A person like that  can overlook the flaws of the churches they attend and realize that they are just as flawed and probably a pain in the neck to other believers, as well at times.  I don't understand why we go to church expecting everyone to walk two feet above the ground and have everything figured out in their life.   We place so many unrealistic expectations on other believers and when they don't measure up to our self-righteous standard, a standard we often don't hold ourselves to, we suddenly feel that no one is worthy of our presence.

And you can dispense with the nonsense about the "Americanized" version of Church.  That is really just another lame excuse.  Being in community and worshiping the Lord is trans-cultural and has nothing to do with what society you live in.   The Chinese have to meet in secret and trust that their fellow congregants won't turn them in to the authorities.  In the past, believers in the Soviet Union and in certain places in Europe met under penalty of death if discovered.    They could have complained and whined  about how this is not 'conducive' to fellowship or community, but they didn't.   They didn't have the freedom we have, but they certainly had and have more courage and they have every reason on a practical level not to go to church.

They have a passion for Jesus and not even the threat of torture or death keeps them out of church.  But in America if someone looks at us the wrong way, or we don't like it that no one condones our sin, or the pastor doesn't preach just right,  we decide not to go, and fold up like paper wimps.   It would be nice if people just had the courage to admit that just don't want to go, that Christianity is not that relevant to their lives and they feel no need to pretend to be something else, instead of trying to blame everyone else. 

[LadyKay]

This has nothing to do with the topic or maybe it does. But all this talk about excuses to not come to church, makes church sound like this really mind numbing place that no one really wants to go to. Kind of like going to the dentist. And the only way to get people to come is to beat them over the head with the Bible telling them they are being bad!  Personally I love going to church. It hasn't always been that way. But over time it has become that way. If you find a really good church there is an energy about the place. An energy that makes you want to be there and be a part of it. It just fills me up when I go like some kind of drug and sometimes I just want to stay there! I wish more people could feel that. Could see that church isn't something we want to make up excuses for not going; but a place that we feel we can't live without.  Anyway that is my story. Cary on.

[Running Gator]

5 hours ago, LadyKay said:

This has nothing to do with the topic or maybe it does. But all this talk about excuses to not come to church, makes church sound like this really mind numbing place that no one really wants to go to. Kind of like going to the dentist. And the only way to get people to come is to beat them over the head with the Bible telling them they are being bad!  Personally I love going to church. It hasn't always been that way. But over time it has become that way. If you find a really good church there is an energy about the place. An energy that makes you want to be there and be a part of it. It just fills me up when I go like some kind of drug and sometimes I just want to stay there! I wish more people could feel that. Could see that church isn't something we want to make up excuses for not going; but a place that we feel we can't live without.  Anyway that is my story. Cary on.

People tend to take it as a personal affront when someone chooses not to attend church.  My wife and I lost friends of 15 plus years when we left a church, and at that time it was just for a different one, not to stop going altogether. 

Then there is the brainwashing that there is a correlation between church attendance/membership and a love/devotion to God.  This has been taught in western churches for a few generations and now it is no longer even questioned.    In my opinion it is all about control, you can't control those  who are not sitting in the pews.   There is no biblical mandate to attend church the way it is ran in the Western world.

That energy you feel at church, is the same that I feel when I am sitting around my coffee table with 3-6 fellow believers having 4 hour debates on the meaning of a passage or such.  Why do I need to go sit in a building for an hour and pay some guy to tell me what he (becuase we all know it can't be a woman) thinks the bible says?

[Running Gator]

 

7 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

And you can dispense with the nonsense about the "Americanized"  " version of Church.  That is really just another lame excuse.  Being in community and worshiping the Lord is trans-cultural and has nothing to do with what society you live in.   The Chinese have to meet in secret and trust that their fellow congregants won't turn them in to the authorities.  In the past, believers in the Soviet Union and in certain places in Europe met under penalty of death if discovered.    They could have complained and whined  about how this is not 'conducive' to fellowship or community, but they didn't.   They didn't have the freedom we have, but they certainly had and have more courage and they have every reason on a practical level not to go to church.

 

Yes, the Chinese and the Russians and even Iranians are have done that.  What they have not done is sit in a building for an hour 3 times a week and have someone tell them what the bible says.  What they did is much closer to what I do than to what you and your church do.  But by your standaard they don't love the Lord.