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Defense for the Mass-Transit System Rapture


Retrobyter

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On August 25, 2016 at 1:21 PM, RustyAngeL said:

So let me get this straight.  The New Jerusalem is being built in space and will land on earth.?? like the Mother Ship.?  and all of us here at Worthy are wrong and you are right?  Wow silly me so many well versed Biblicaly based people who have been in the Scriptures for years yet your the only one that is right.  If I were you, with all due respect, I would think again.

RustyAngeL

Shabbat shalom, RustyAngeL.

"Mother Ship?" No. Actually, it will be more like the "Father's House," or literally, the "Father's Tent." Are you sure who you think are "all of us here at Worthy" truly includes "all of us here at Worthy?" 

Look, it's really very basic: Just look at the Greek for Revelation 21:

Apokalupsis Iooannou 21:1-4
1 Kai eidon ouranon kainon kai geen kaineen. Ho gar prootos ouranos kai hee prootee gee apeelthan kai hee thalassa ouk estin eti.
2 Kai teen polin teen hagian Ierousaleem kaineen eidon katabainousan ek tou ouranou apo tou Theou heetoimasmeneen hoos numfeen kekosmeemeneen too andri autees.
3 Kai eekousa foonees megalees ek tou thronou legousees, Idou hee skeenee tou Theou meta toon anthroopoon, kai skeenoosei met’ autoon, kai autoi laoi autou esontai, kai autos ho Theos met’autoon estai autoon Theos.
4 Kai exaleipsei pas dakruin ek toon ofthalmoon autoon, kai ho thanatos ouk estai eti oute penthos oute kraugee oute ponos oui estai meti, hoti ta proota apeelthan.
UBS The Greek New Testament

1 Kai = 1 And
eidon = I-saw
ouranon = a-sky
kainon = new
kai = and
geen = an-earth
kaineen. = new.
Ho = The
gar = for
prootos = first
ouranos = sky
kai = and
hee = the
prootee = first
gee = earth
apeelthan = had-gone-off
kai = and
hee = the
thalassa = sea
ouk = no
estin = there-was
eti. = more.
2 Kai = 2 And
teen = the
polin = city
teen = the
hagian = holy
Ierousaleem = Jerusalem (Yerushalayim)
kaineen = new

eidon = I-saw
katabainousan = descending
ek = out
tou = of-the
ouranou = sky

apo = away-from
tou = the
Theou = God
heetoimasmeneen = prepared
hoos = like/as
numfeen = a-bride
kekosmeemeneen = adorned
too = for-the
andri = man/husband
autees. = of-her.
3 Kai = 3 And
eekousa = I-heard
foonees = a-voice
megalees = loud
ek = out
tou = of-the
thronou = throne
legousees, = saying,
Idou = Look
hee = the
skeenee = tent
tou = of-the
Theou = God

meta = with
toon = the
anthroopoon, = men,
kai = and
skeenoosei = He-will-tent
met’ = with
autoon, = them,

kai = and
autoi = they
laoi = peoples
autou = His
esontai, = will-be,
kai = and
autos = He
ho = the
Theos = God
met’ = with
autoon = them
estai = will-be
autoon = their
Theos. = God.
4 Kai = 4 And
exaleipsei = He-will-wipe-away
pas = every
dakruon = tear
ek = out
toon = of-the
ofthalmoon = eyes
autoon, = of-them,
kai = and
ho = the
thanatos = death
ouk = not
estai = will-be
eti = any-longer
oute = nor
penthos = mourning
oute = nor
kraugee = crying-out
oute = nor
ponos = pain;
ouk = not
estai = they-will-be
eti, = any-longer,
hoti = so-that
ta = the
proota = first-[things]
apeelthan. = have-passed-away.

Of course, we know that this follows Revelation 20, which talks about the Millennium and the Great White Throne Judgment. Thus, this scene FOLLOWS those periods, and is at the beginning of the Eternal State with the New Earth and its New Sky.

Also, if you will notice the Greek of Hebrews 12:22 (mentioned above) how that this is a "Ierousaleem epouranioo," "a Jerusalem from above the sky," and how that this "epouranioo" is the SAME WORD used in 1 Corinthians 15:40-41 ("celestial bodies" = Greek: soomata epouraniaand "the celestial" = Greek: toon epouranioon) for the place where the sun, moon, and stars are, then - yes! - it is a Jerusalem built where the sun, moon, and stars are - SPACE!

Since, Revelation 21:2 says that this New Jerusalem "descends out of the sky," then it, of necessity, LANDS! There's nothing between the sky and the ground! That's why we see the two touch at the horizon in the distance! Besides, this is a huge city that has FOUNDATIONS or FOOTINGS (Greek: themelioi) (Rev. 21:14, 19-20)! What good would they be if at least the first one wasn't set into the ground?

And, we are also told that this city "lieth foursquare"; that is, it has a "four-cornered footprint" (Greek: tetragonas keitai) (Rev. 21:16)! (It ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT mean that it's a cube!)

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On August 25, 2016 at 1:33 PM, missmuffet said:

Most of those who ignore or give the book of Revelation their own meaning I have found are amillennial. This is the truth about the New Jerusalem.

Question: "What is the New Jerusalem?"

Answer:
The New Jerusalem, which is also called the Tabernacle of God, the Holy City, the City of God, the Celestial City, the City Foursquare, and Heavenly Jerusalem, is literally heaven on earth. It is referred to in the Bible in several places (Galatians 4:26; Hebrews 11:10; 12:22–24; and 13:14), but it is most fully described in Revelation 21.

In Revelation 21, the recorded history of man is at its end. All of the ages have come and gone. Christ has gathered His church in the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15–17). The Tribulation has passed (Revelation 6—18). The battle of Armageddon has been fought and won by our Lord Jesus Christ (Revelation 19:17–21). Satan has been chained for the 1,000-year reign of Christ on earth (Revelation 20:1–3). A new, glorious temple has been established in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 40—48). The final rebellion against God has been quashed, and Satan has received his just punishment, an eternity in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:7–10.) The Great White Throne Judgment has taken place, and mankind has been judged (Revelation 20:11–15).

In Revelation 21:1 God does a complete make-over of heaven and earth (Isaiah 65:17; 2 Peter 3:12–13). The new heaven and new earth are what some call the “eternal state” and will be “where righteousness dwells” (2 Peter 3:13). After the re-creation, God reveals the New Jerusalem. John sees a glimpse of it in his vision: “The Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband” (Revelation 21:2). This is the city that Abraham looked for in faith (Hebrews 11:10). It is the place where God will dwell with His people forever (Revelation 21:3). Inhabitants of this celestial city will have all tears wiped away (Revelation 21:4).

The New Jerusalem will be fantastically huge. John records that the city is nearly 1,400 miles long, and it is as wide and as high as it is long—a perfect cube (Revelation 21:15–17). The city will also be dazzling in every way. It is lighted by the glory of God (verse 23). Its twelve foundations, bearing the names of the twelve apostles, are “decorated with every kind of precious stone” (verse 19). It has twelve gates, each a single pearl, bearing the names of the twelve tribes of Israel (verses 12 and 21). The street will be made of pure gold (verse 21).

The New Jerusalem will be a place of unimagined blessing. The curse of the old earth will be gone (Revelation 22:3). In the city are the tree of life “for the healing of the nations” and the river of life (verses 1–2). It is the place that Paul spoke of: “In the coming ages [God] might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:6). The New Jerusalem is the ultimate fulfillment of all God’s promises. The New Jerusalem is God’s goodness made fully manifest.

Who are the residents of the New Jerusalem? The Father and the Lamb are there (Revelation 21:22). Angels are at the gates (verse 12). But the city will be filled with God’s redeemed children. The New Jerusalem is the righteous counter to the evil Babylon (Revelation 17), destroyed by God’s judgment (Revelation 18). The wicked had their city, and God has His. To which city do you belong? Babylon the Great or the New Jerusalem? If you believe that Jesus, the Son of God, died and rose again and have asked God to save you by His grace, then you are a citizen of the New Jerusalem. “God raised [you] up with Christ and seated [you] with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:6). You have “an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade” (1 Peter 1:4). If you have not yet trusted Christ as your Savior, then we urge you to receive Him. The invitation is extended: “The Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come!’ And let the one who hears say, ‘Come!’ Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life” (Revelation 22:17).

http://www.gotquestions.org/new-jerusalem.html

Shalom, missmuffet.

I agree with EVERYTHING that you have written in this post, with the one exception of the definition of "heaven." Again, it is the Greek word "ouranos" which simply means the "sky." It's not "God's abode" that is destroyed in Rev. 21:1 nor is it even the "whole universe," as some teach. It is simply the sky around our planet - our atmosphere - that shall be destroyed. The gases that we breathe! Just as the "earth" refers to the GROUND - the surface of our planet, so too the "heaven" refers to the SKY - the gases that surround our planet!

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On 8/27/2016 at 7:21 AM, FresnoJoe said:

Thank You For Your Thoughtful Reply
Beloved, I Love You

Just a reminder of a past discussion about the same topic of End Time sequence:

Ah~!

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14

Could It Be, Is It Really

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Revelation 19:11-14

All About Jerusalem And The Battle For Zion?

The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. Joel 3:16

Is not this --

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14

fulfilled in this?

And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.  Rev. 5:6-7
 
Must not this --

Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. Isaiah 63:1-3

come before this?

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. ... And he was clothed with a vesture covered in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  And the armies which were in heaven followed him... Rev. 19:11, 13-14 
 
Scripture tells us that Jesus will have blood-stained robes at the time he descends to fight for Jerusalem, and Scripture tells us how those robes had become stained before that final battle.
The passage from Isaiah 63 (and others in that book), like the one from Ezekiel 20 I quoted earlier, show that Jesus will be personally active in earth's affairs before His final defeat of the nations assembled by the Beast against Jerusalem and all Israel. Those who brush off the testimony of these OT passages, or ignore them, will never be able to "see" [will be blind to] the full scope of End Time events. During those events, Egypt will experience 40 years of desolation. (Ezek. 29:11-13)
 
(And I love you too, Elder Joe.)
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:emot-heartbeat:

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Shalom, all.

So, to realize that ...

(1) Yeshua` returns to rescue Israel (Isa. 48-49; Zech. 12:7-8; 14:1-5),
(2) we are part of Yeshua`s armies that follow Him into battle (Jude 14-15; Rev. 19:14, 19),
(3) Yeshua` takes up His position as Israel's King (Ps. 2:7-9; Matt. 25:31-34; Luke 19:11-15; Rev. 2:27; 11:15-19; 19:15),
(4) we shall reign with Him on the earth (Rev. 5:10; 20:4-6; 22:5),
(5) Yeshua` shall be subduing all His enemies throughout the first 1000 years, (Ps. 2:1-12; 1 Cor. 15:20-28), and 
(6) Yeshua` shall be the Judge - the Arbitrator - the Supreme Court - for His realm (Jn. 5:19-23; Matt. 12:42; Luke 11:31 cff. 1 Ki. 3:6-14; Rom. 14:10; 2 Cor. 5:10),

is the foundational structure as to the REASON that Yeshua` returns. Yeshua` Himself said,

Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

And, this was a quotation from Psalm 118:26:

Psalm 118:22-26
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.
KJV

The Hebrew (transliterated) of verse 26 is ...

Tehiyl 118:26
26 Baaruwkh habaa' b-sheem YHWH: Beerakhnuwkhem mibeeyt YHWH:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH

26 Baaruwkh = 26 Blessed (Welcome)
habaa' = the-Comer
b-sheem = in-name (on-authority)
YHWH: = of-YHWH:
Beerakhnuwkhem = We-have-blessed-you/We-have-welcomed-you
mibeeyt = from-[the]-house
YHWH: = of-YHWH:

Thus, the phrase means "Welcome, Comer on [the] authority of YHWH!" Indeed, the phrase is seen in modern Israel at all the seaports and airports, only in the plural instead: "Baaruwkiym habaa'iym!" "Wecome, Comers!"

sign_welcome1.jpg

So, Yeshua`s return will be when Israel, particularly those in Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), can WELCOME HIM BACK! Based on the way they feel about Him now, it will have to be a time of DESPERATION! They will also have rebuilt the "house of YHWH," the Temple, by that time. 

Here’s a song I wrote that carries the gist of this viewpoint:

Seven hundred years before His timely birth,
A prophet of great boldness came to tell the men of earth
That there would come a powerful man anointed to be King;
Of His surprising miracles the populace would sing:

Of healing pow’r to make blind see and deaf to hear His voice,
Of pow’r to even raise the dead and cause men to rejoice!
Of all these things and so much more the children would sing songs,
But … only children welcomed Him to remedy their wrongs.

A song was written years before Isaiah was a child,
Predicting that Christ won’t fit into systems then gone wild:
“The builders of the pyr’mid said, ‘The stone does not fit in!’
When they were done, it CAPPED the work and much to their chagrin!”

The Messiah was rejected, ridiculed, and slain …;
But to the shock of all involved, He came to life again!
But, He did not then cap the work of which the song declared.
Instead, He left the earth until He hears the message dared:

“We care not whether you were He of whom the Christians claim;
We only know we need you now, or we will die in shame!
We’ve heard of you, Messiah fair, and of your pow’r we read;
Please come and rescue us, dear Sire, in this our time of need!

“If you won’t save us now, there will be no one left to save.
The nation Israel is doomed, and we can see our grave.”
And in the nation Israel’s gloomiest, darkest hour,
Will come the Prince (not yet the King) in majesty and pow’r!

And when they see Messiah diving down with kingly steed,
And all the thousands following to aid the ones in need,
Then shouts of victory will echo all across the land
With sighs of relief and gasps of awe as He saves with mighty hand!

And THEN will He be made a King, accepted now at last!
And THEN a King o’er many kings as one by one they ask!
Ah, but for now He is the CHRIST——anointed TO BE King,
And although He is not King now, he will be in the “Spring ….”

For now, the “Winter” slowly drags with vernal guarantees,
And time goes on at God’s own pace with thoughtfulness and ease.
He fills each age with purpose and a reason for each pause:
To get the most from every age and weed out all the flaws.

So boast not, Christian Gentile, for you are grafted in
To share Messiah’s bounty PREMATURELY! Do not sin!
If God spared not the people whom He worked with many years,
What will He do if YOU should speak against them without tears?

The Scriptures say so little ’bout this time in which we live,
Could it be that we’ve read into it much more than He did give?
Why must we feel that we’re the ones for whom the sun must shine?
Why do we think we’re all who’ll be at the marriage feast to dine?

Get rid of that old foolish pride! We’re GRAFTED IN, I say!
This high-and-mighty attitude will come to humbler day!
It should be crushing blow to think that Christ’s return will be
When ISRAEL cries, “If you will come, we’ll surely kneel to Thee.”

 

So, the URGENCY of His Mission to rescue His people, Israel, makes speed the most important factor! THAT'S the reason for an immediate pick-up of His army, a "Rapture!" However, HE CAN'T WAIT ON US! There's going to be a learning curve on our parts. So, He's going on ahead, and His FIRST task is His attack on Edowm:

Amos 1:11-12
11 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he did pursue his brother with the sword, and did cast off all pity, and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever:
12 But I will send a fire upon Teman, which shall devour the palaces of Bozrah.
KJV

Joel 3:19-21
19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.
KJV

Ezekiel 25:12-14
12 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because that Edom hath dealt against the house of Judah by taking vengeance, and hath greatly offended, and revenged himself upon them;
13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also stretch out mine hand upon Edom, and will cut off man and beast from it; and I will make it desolate from Teman; and they of Dedan shall fall by the sword.
14 And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord GOD.
KJV

Isaiah 63:1-6
1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?
I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

KJV

After this task is complete, His next goal is the purge of Y'hudah: This is when we'll "meet Him in the air," and from that time on, we will remain with Him! "So shall we ever be with the Lord!"

Zechariah 12:2-7
2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces (shall herniate themselves), though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
KJV

After this, He will proceed to Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) and deliver the people who were taken as hostages there:

Zechariah 12:8-9
8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
KJV

This is when the details are noted:

Zechariah 14:2-5
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
KJV

And, then, as the captives of Yerushalayim are freed and go past the Messiah who is freeing them, they notice:

Zechariah 12:10-14
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
KJV

Matthew 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth (Land) mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (from the lower "end" to the higher "end").
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven (from the lowest part of the ground to the highest part of the atmosphere).
KJV

So, He doesn't come to take us all away to some ethereal "Heaven"; He doesn't take us out of the way of God's Wrath; we SHARE in the outpouring of His Wrath: "The LORD my God shall come, and ALL THE SAINTS with thee!" And,...

Revelation 19:11-21
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the ARMIES which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and HE TREADETH THE WINEPRESS OF THE FIERCENESS AND WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
KJV

Ezekiel 39:1-7; 17-29
1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

...

17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which cause them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
KJV

As much as you know that Yeshua` loves those who are His own, you must also be aware that He will OWN those whom He loves! He SHALL REDEEM (BUY BACK) THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL! And, He also said that the Land was HIS, as well! He CLAIMS what He wins in battle!

Leviticus 25:23
23 The land shall not be sold for ever: for THE LAND IS MINE; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.
KJV

I'm not going to post it all, but read Isaiah chapters 59 through 66! It's HIS Land and all the people upon it! He is their REDEEMER!

This is why the whole spirit of the Bible is "Jewish" and why Christians need to get back to their "Jewish" roots! We've gotten too "nebulous" with our thinking! Too general in our interpretations of Scripture - JEWISH Scriptures, whether "Old Testament" or "New Testament!" It's not that "Jews are grafted into the Church!" It's that Gentile believers (who gather in "churches" - local communities) are grafted into the Olive Tree - the Messiah's Israel!

Every phrase that Gentile Christians use is PREGNANT with meaning when one digs into its history!

Every "sacrament" that Gentile Christians observe was first a Jewish celebration or ritual! 

And, the main people that has an ETERNAL PLACE in God's heart is the Children of Israel! And, Gentile believers fit into that people, like oleander branches grafted into the Olive Tree among the natural branches.

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On August 28, 2016 at 10:55 AM, WilliamL said:

Just a reminder of a past discussion about the same topic of End Time sequence:

Is not this --

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14

fulfilled in this?

And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.  Rev. 5:6-7
 
Must not this --

Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. Isaiah 63:1-3

come before this?

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. ... And he was clothed with a vesture covered in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  And the armies which were in heaven followed him... Rev. 19:11, 13-14 
 
Scripture tells us that Jesus will have blood-stained robes at the time he descends to fight for Jerusalem, and Scripture tells us how those robes had become stained before that final battle.
The passage from Isaiah 63 (and others in that book), like the one from Ezekiel 20 I quoted earlier, show that Jesus will be personally active in earth's affairs before His final defeat of the nations assembled by the Beast against Jerusalem and all Israel. Those who brush off the testimony of these OT passages, or ignore them, will never be able to "see" [will be blind to] the full scope of End Time events. During those events, Egypt will experience 40 years of desolation. (Ezek. 29:11-13)
 
(And I love you too, Elder Joe.)

Shalom, WilliamL.

You asked, "Is not this -- Daniel 7:13-14 -- fulfilled in this -- Rev. 5:6-7?"

The simple answer is, no. Daniel 7 is about the Son of Man being GIVEN "dominion, and glory, and a kingdom." Revelation 5 is about the Lamb TAKING the scroll from Him who sits upon the throne. Also, this scroll is a record of plagues and curses separated by each of the seals that will be broken. It is NOT a document giving the Messiah His Kingdom; it is a scroll of plagues and curses!

Oh, and I should have mentioned that Daniel 7:13-14 is equivalent to the Messiah's parable of Luke 19:

Luke 19:11-28
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore,
A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
KJV

Regarding the Messiah's attack on Botsrah in Edowm coming before the Messiah's arrival in Revelation 19, you're absolutely correct. Not only does the Messiah attack Botsrah, but He will also do it alone, for the most part! And, when He begins His purge of the Land of Israel, He will start in Yhudah (Judah), according to Zechariah 12:

Zechariah 12:2-9
2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.
6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
KJV

And, of course, MANY know about Yeshua` landing upon the Mount of Olives found in Zechariah 14:1-5, but verses 3-5 are an EXPANSION of verses 7-8 in Zechariah 12.

Zechariah 14:1-5
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

KJV

Anyway, good job!

Edited by Retrobyter
To add the Messiah's parable
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11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You asked, "Is not this -- Daniel 7:13-14 -- fulfilled in this -- Rev. 5:6-7?"

The simple answer is, no. Daniel 7 is about the Son of Man being GIVEN "dominion, and glory, and a kingdom." Revelation 5 is about the Lamb TAKING the scroll from Him who sits upon the throne. It is NOT a document giving the Messiah His Kingdom; it is a scroll of plagues and curses!

The One who sits on the throne gives the scroll, the title deed as it were, and the Lamb receives/takes it. The Seals are not the same as the content of that which is written upon the scroll.

The content of that which is written is implied in verses 9-10:

Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The content of that which is written is also implied by the announcement of who the Lamb is at this very instant, "the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David," verse 5, that is, the Messianic King coming to receive authority to rule over the earth, both personally and together with his elect ones. This is the fulfillment of Luke 19:12's "to receive for himself a kingdom," which you correctly point out above.

You probably won't agree with this understanding, nonetheless, there is no place in the Revelation that fits the event of Luke 19:12 other than this passage in Rev. 5.

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7 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The One who sits on the throne gives the scroll, the title deed as it were, and the Lamb receives/takes it. The Seals are not the same as the content of that which is written upon the scroll.

The content of that which is written is implied in verses 9-10:

Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The content of that which is written is also implied by the announcement of who the Lamb is at this very instant, "the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David," verse 5, that is, the Messianic King coming to receive authority to rule over the earth, both personally and together with his elect ones. This is the fulfillment of Luke 19:12's "to receive for himself a kingdom," which you correctly point out above.

You probably won't agree with this understanding, nonetheless, there is no place in the Revelation that fits the event of Luke 19:12 other than this passage in Rev. 5.

You are like my friend.  She takes one passage and makes an entire doctrine out of it.  Can't do that.  As my friend would say.. That dog won't hunt.

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On 8/22/2016 at 3:54 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Ezra.

Nah, but thanks for your concern.

Off base doesn't even begin to describe his theory, and it is "his" theory, nothing to do with what the Bible says.

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49 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Your "mass transit" doctrine contains several glaring errors and others have already pointed them out, but they are the same errors that all post-tribulation proponents make and these two errors render the post-tribulation Rapture position unworkable.

The worst mistake you make is declaring that believers have to be "tested."  That is a horribly un-biblical position.  If people who were already believers needed to be tested, that would render Christ's sacrifice as insufficient to completely pay for a person's sins and it would also mean that one of God's spiritual attributes would be stripped away, that being omniscience.  God knows who is truly His and who is not, so no testing is necessary.  Any statement that alludes to God having to test believers renders Him as not being all-knowing.

The Tribulation is not "persecution."  Persecution is delivered at the hands of other human beings, Satan, and Satan's agents.  The Tribulation is God's wrath poured out on an unbelieving world.  A believer, in the Age of Grace cannot be the victim of God's wrath, since their sins are already paid for by Christ's sacrifice.  The Age of Grace ends at the Rapture and The Church does not enter the Rapture.

The Rapture is not the Second Coming.  At the Second Coming, Jesus returns, physically to the Earth.  He does not do so at the Rapture, he appears in the clouds and calls His believers, both alive and dead who meet Him in the air and Jesus escorts them to Heaven.  Jesus does not return to the Earth at this time.  They are not the same event.

Thank you Cobalt,

The Bible couldn't be any more clear.  How can you read what it says and come up with something like this.?  Very strange.  And as for your avatar Retro it looks like something right out of the New Age movement. Sorry.

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