Defense for the Mass-Transit System Rapture

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, everyone!

I figured, why not? So, here goes:

I believe in the "rapture" of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, as it is often called; however, I do NOT believe that anyone goes to "Heaven." We will go THROUGH the "heavens," the "skies," on our way to the Middle East. We'll meet the Master in the air, and from that time on we'll always be with the Master. 

Even if you don't accept my definition of "heaven," Yeshua` just CAME from heaven! Why would He go back? To keep His own out of the Great Tribulation? To keep us out of trials? If that's what you believe, then you really DO believe in "fire insurance!" But, we were never promised a life of ease without persecution. If we don't ever have to face trials and persecution and martyrdom, then God MAY have to apologize to those of the first century who suffered! Or, at least WE should!

Why would He go back? To remove us from God's Wrath? Why would that be necessary? God's been quite capable up to this point in history of keeping His children from experiencing His Wrath (as long as His Wrath wasn't aimed AT them, of course).

He had Noach build a 3-story box (that's what "ark" means) to keep air-breathing life alive while the flood waters were on the earth.

He was able to protect Shadrach, Meshech, and Abed-Nego THROUGH the fire without so much as the smell of smoke on their clothes!

He had the children of Israel in the land of Goshen within the borders of Egypt put blood on the doorposts and the lintel of their doors to mark those within the house as belonging to God when the messenger of death passed over and spared their firstborn sons while all the rest of Egypt suffered loss.

Daniel was surrounded by hungry lions all night long without a scratch on him in the morning!

No, God doesn't need to have us out of the way when He pours out His Wrath; His aim is quite good! He could hit everyone around you and leave you standing!

So, what does this passage in 1 Thessalonians mean? Let's look at it again:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

It's a resurrection passage, to be sure. "Jesus" and the "Lord himself" are Yeshua` the Messiah. We should know that much.

God will resurrect those who sleep in Yeshua` and bring them with Yeshua` as He returns. They're not coming from anywhere else but the grave, the urn, or the sea and the wonderful memory of our great God ADONAI. The resurrection is an act of CREATION! He will do for us what He did for our ultimate ancestor, Adam; He will form our bodies of the dust of the ground, the ashes, or whatever materials at hand He may choose to use, and breathe into our nostrils the breath of life, and we shall be air-breathers (souls) once again. At least, that's what He WOULD do if He wasn't going to do more! 

According to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:35-57, we read,

1 Corinthians 15:35-57
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies (Greek: soomata epourania = "bodies belonging-to-above-the-sky"), and bodies terrestrial (Greek: soomata epigeia = "bodies belonging-to-above-the-ground"): but the glory of the celestial (Greek: toon epouranioon) is one, and the glory of the terrestrial (Greek: toon epigeioon) is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body (Greek: sooma psuchikon = "a-body air-breathing"); it is raised a spiritual body (Greek: sooma pneumatikon = "a-body wind-blasting"). There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam was made a living soul (Greek: eis psucheen zoosan = "into an-air-breather living")" (Gen. 2:7); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (Greek: eis pneuma zoo-opoioun = "into a-wind life-giving").
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual (Greek: pneumatikon = "wind-blasting"), but that which is natural (Greek: psuchikon = "air-breathing"); and afterward that which is spiritual (Greek: pneumatikon = "wind-blasting").
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy (Greek: ek gees choikos = "out-of earth soil-like": the second man is the Lord from heaven (Greek: ho kurios ex ouranou = "the Lord out-of [the]-sky").
48 As is the earthy (Greek: ho choikos = "the soil-like [one]"), such are they also that are earthy (Greek: hoi choikoi = "the soil-like [ones]"): and as is the heavenly (Greek: ho epouranios = "the [one]-belonging-to-above-the-sky"), such are they also that are heavenly (Greek: hoi epouranioi = "the [ones]-belonging-to-above-the-sky").
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood (Greek: sarx kai haima = "muscle and blood") cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed (Greek: allageesometha = "we-shall-be-made-different"),
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (Greek: allageesometha = "we-shall-be-made-different").
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory." (Isa. 25:8)
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

So, those who are resurrected are resurrected incorruptible - that is, they shall no longer decay - and immortal - that is, they shall no longer die. We are never told we shall go to "Heaven" because that's not our destiny! Our destiny is the NEW EARTH, but that comes AFTER the first 1000 years of the Messiah's Kingdom, after the Great White Throne Judgment, and after the global Fire, the Lake of Fire and Sulfur, and after Yeshua` the Messiah has turned over the Kingdom (the WORLD Kingdom) to His Father.

Oh, and just as a point of reference, I started this yesterday, so I wrote "Shabbat shalom," even though it is no longer the Shabbat.

[missmuffet]

You do not believe those who are raptured will go to heaven? Do you believe in heaven? That is very strange. Definitely not Biblical.

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

We will go THROUGH the "heavens," the "skies," on our way to the Middle East.

Right.  The Gaza Strip would be a great destination right now, with all the bombing going on there!

This is one of the wackiest theories to appear in a long time.

[Ezra]

7 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

You do not believe those who are raptured will go to heaven? Do you believe in heaven? That is very strange. Definitely not Biblical.

Retro does not believe in Heaven.  He thinks the sky is heaven. Which would make the bluebirds the angels.

[missmuffet]

Just now, Ezra said:

Retro does not believe in Heaven.  He thinks the sky is heaven. Which would make the bluebirds the angels.

[Guest Robert]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, everyone!

I figured, why not? So, here goes:

I believe in the "rapture" of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, as it is often called; however, I do NOT believe that anyone goes to "Heaven." We will go THROUGH the "heavens," the "skies," on our way to the Middle East. We'll meet the Master in the air, and from that time on we'll always be with the Master. 

Even if you don't accept my definition of "heaven," Yeshua` just CAME from heaven! Why would He go back? To keep His own out of the Great Tribulation? To keep us out of trials? If that's what you believe, then you really DO believe in "fire insurance!" But, we were never promised a life of ease without persecution. If we don't ever have to face trials and persecution and martyrdom, then God MAY have to apologize to those of the first century who suffered! Or, at least WE should!

Why would He go back? To remove us from God's Wrath? Why would that be necessary? God's been quite capable up to this point in history of keeping His children from experiencing His Wrath (as long as His Wrath wasn't aimed AT them, of course).

He had Noach build a 3-story box (that's what "ark" means) to keep air-breathing life alive while the flood waters were on the earth.

He was able to protect Shadrach, Meshech, and Abed-Nego THROUGH the fire without so much as the smell of smoke on their clothes!

He had the children of Israel in the land of Goshen within the borders of Egypt put blood on the doorposts and the lintel of their doors to mark those within the house as belonging to God when the messenger of death passed over and spared their firstborn sons while all the rest of Egypt suffered loss.

Daniel was surrounded by hungry lions all night long without a scratch on him in the morning!

No, God doesn't need to have us out of the way when He pours out His Wrath; His aim is quite good! He could hit everyone around you and leave you standing!

So, what does this passage in 1 Thessalonians mean? Let's look at it again:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

It's a resurrection passage, to be sure. "Jesus" and the "Lord himself" are Yeshua` the Messiah. We should know that much.

God will resurrect those who sleep in Yeshua` and bring them with Yeshua` as He returns. They're not coming from anywhere else but the grave, the urn, or the sea and the wonderful memory of our great God ADONAI. The resurrection is an act of CREATION! He will do for us what He did for our ultimate ancestor, Adam; He will form our bodies of the dust of the ground, the ashes, or whatever materials at hand He may choose to use, and breathe into our nostrils the breath of life, and we shall be air-breathers (souls) once again. At least, that's what He WOULD do if He wasn't going to do more! 

According to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:35-57, we read,

1 Corinthians 15:35-57
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies (Greek: soomata epourania = "bodies belonging-to-above-the-sky"), and bodies terrestrial (Greek: soomata epigeia = "bodies belonging-to-above-the-ground"): but the glory of the celestial (Greek: toon epouranioon) is one, and the glory of the terrestrial (Greek: toon epigeioon) is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body (Greek: sooma psuchikon = "a-body air-breathing"); it is raised a spiritual body (Greek: sooma pneumatikon = "a-body wind-blasting"). There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam was made a living soul (Greek: eis psucheen zoosan = "into an-air-breather living")" (Gen. 2:7); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (Greek: eis pneuma zoo-opoioun = "into a-wind life-giving").
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual (Greek: pneumatikon = "wind-blasting"), but that which is natural (Greek: psuchikon = "air-breathing"); and afterward that which is spiritual (Greek: pneumatikon = "wind-blasting").
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy (Greek: ek gees choikos = "out-of earth soil-like": the second man is the Lord from heaven (Greek: ho kurios ex ouranou = "the Lord out-of [the]-sky").
48 As is the earthy (Greek: ho choikos = "the soil-like [one]"), such are they also that are earthy (Greek: hoi choikoi = "the soil-like [ones]"): and as is the heavenly (Greek: ho epouranios = "the [one]-belonging-to-above-the-sky"), such are they also that are heavenly (Greek: hoi epouranioi = "the [ones]-belonging-to-above-the-sky").
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood (Greek: sarx kai haima = "muscle and blood") cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed (Greek: allageesometha = "we-shall-be-made-different"),
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (Greek: allageesometha = "we-shall-be-made-different").
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory." (Isa. 25:8)
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

So, those who are resurrected are resurrected incorruptible - that is, they shall no longer decay - and immortal - that is, they shall no longer die. We are never told we shall go to "Heaven" because that's not our destiny! Our destiny is the NEW EARTH, but that comes AFTER the first 1000 years of the Messiah's Kingdom, after the Great White Throne Judgment, and after the global Fire, the Lake of Fire and Sulfur, and after Yeshua` the Messiah has turned over the Kingdom (the WORLD Kingdom) to His Father.

Oh, and just as a point of reference, I started this yesterday, so I wrote "Shabbat shalom," even though it is no longer the Shabbat.

 

1) What you have quoted does not support Jesus transporting the saints in the Rapture to the Holy land.

2) Where do you think Jesus is going to be during the Tribulation? Scripture clearly shows Him IN HEAVEN during the Tribulation:

" After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance. Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads." (Revelation 4:1-4, NASB, emphasis mine)

 

This establishes that God's throne is in Heaven. Next, we see Jesus in Heaven, to take the scroll and break the seals:

"And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." (Revelation 5:6-8, NASB, emphasis mine)

 

Revelation 7 shows once again the Lamb and the throne:

" After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying,
      “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”  (Revelation 7:9-12, NASB, emphasis mine)

 

And Rev. 19 has this to say:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” (Revelation 19:11-16, NASB, emphasis mine)

So Jesus does indeed return to Heaven; He doesn't remain here on earth, and we don't go somewhere else on Earth during the Tribulation.

Another point: "For the word of the Lord has sounded forth from you, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone forth, so that we have no need to say anything. For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:8-10, NASB, emphasis mine)

Not "through", not "during", but "from the wrath to come". We are not "protected through it", but delivered from it.

There is also the issue of the Restrainer: It has to be the Holy Spirit, as it takes a person of superior power to restrain an individual such as Satan. Even Michael the Archangel would not argue with Satan when contending with the body of Moses, but said "The Lord rebuke you" (Jude 1:9 to be exact). And scripture is clear that A) He would never leave us nor forsake us, and B) the Restrainer would be removed before the unveiling of the Man of Lawlessness (Antichrist). So, if the Lord has promised to never leave us (and the Holy Spirit is God), and the only one who can be the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit (who must be "taken out of the way" before the AC can show up), then either 1): God breaks His promise; or 2) We're not here for the Tribulation.

 

Now, a question for folks who think we will be here for the Tribulation....

 

Is the Blood of Christ enough, or do you think that salvation is somehow lacking without our "adding to it"?

If that is the case: then why are the saints who have gone before us not resurrected to suffer in the Tribulation as well, seeing as there was no time like it before, nor would there be again? Do we think the suffering in their lives was worse than what those in the tribulation would endure?

 

Something to think on...

[Guest]

Retro - not biblical. Quite an imagination.

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, missmuffet said:

You do not believe those who are raptured will go to heaven? Do you believe in heaven? That is very strange. Definitely not Biblical.

Shalom, mismuffet.

No, I do NOT believe those who are raptured will go to heaven, and ... it's ENTIRELY biblical! They (and we) will go THROUGH the "heavens"; that is, they (and we) will go THROUGH the skies, with the messengers sent to retrieve them (and us), and they (and we) will all go to Israel to help the Messiah purge His Israel from those who will be trying to do the children of Israel permanent harm.

Think about what Yeshua` Himself said in Matthew 16:1-4:

Matthew 16:1-4
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek word: ouranos).
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky (Greek word: ouranos) is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek word: ouranos) is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek word: ouranos); but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV

They asked for a "sign from heaven" and He gave them one! "Red sky at night is a sailor's delight; red sky at morning, sailors take warning!" It's the SAME GREEK WORD in all four occurrences!

And, what about Peter's words during his first public address?

Acts 2:22-36
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ (the Messiah) to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ (the Messiah), that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ (Messiah).
KJV

David didn't "ascend into the heavens." Instead, he is "dead and buried," and they could go to his sepulchre for proof. And, Peter said this AFTER Yeshua`s resurrection and ascension!

"Heaven" is a misnomer. What most think about when they think of "Heaven" is the description in Revelation 21 and 22. Y'know, the pearly gates, the streets of gold, the throne of God and of the Lamb, etc? But, this is a description of the NEW JERUSALEM, not "Heaven!"

And, the New Jerusalem is our home-to-be when the New Earth and the New Sky are rebuilt out of the ashes of the second earth and sky in which we currently dwell after the global Fire that was promised in prophecy. See, the "third heaven" is not some place out there beyond the starry "second heaven" while the atmosphere around our planet is the "first heaven." Peter tells us a WHOLE DIFFERENT WAY TO LOOK AT IT:

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water (1st "heavens" or skies and 1st earth):
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished (THE FLOOD):
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now (2nd "heavens" or skies and 2nd earth), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (THE FIRE).
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (THE FIRE)
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness (3rd "heavens" or skies and 3rd earth).
KJV

It's not a "third heaven" spatially; it's a "third heaven or sky" CHRONOLOGICALLY! The word "ouranos," often translated "heaven," is a Greek word that means "the sky."

NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as NT:3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity):
KJV - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

There are other words that are made from this word, such as "mesouraneema," "ouranios," "ouranothen," "epouranios," but they are extensions of this word:

NT:3321 "Mesouraneema" is the Greek word meaning "the middle of the ouranos." Revelation 19:17 says that this is where the birds fly.

NT:3770 "Ouranios" means of or belonging to the "ouranos." It's just the adjective form of the word.

NT:3771 "Ouranothen" means "from ouranos," which means you have to know what "ouranos" is first.

NT:2032 "Epouranios" is also an adjective form but stems from the combination of "epi," which means "above" or "upon," and "ouranos." It means "of or belonging to" + "above the sky." In 1 Corinthians 15:39-40, Paul said it was where the sun, moon, and stars are. Hebrews 12:22 tells us it is where the New Jerusalem is. This word is talking about "space!"

However, beyond this last word, NONE of these words typically translated as "heaven," "heavens," or "heavenly," could refer strictly to a place beyond the stars!

We were NEVER instructed to anticipate "going to Heaven when we die!" Instead, we were constantly reminded to anticipate our RESURRECTION!

Look, how was Adam created?

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

The MAN, not "his body," was formed from the dust of the ground. God "puffed" into his nostrils the puff of life, and man became a living NEFESH, a living AIR-BREATHER! The Hebrew word "nefesh" comes from the verb "naafash":

OT:5314 naafash (naw-fash'); a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
KJV - (be) refresh selves (-ed).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Therefore, the word "nefesh" means...

OT:5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
KJV - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature,  dead (-ly), desire,  [dis-] contented,  fish, ghost,  greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath,  jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thyself-), them (your)- selves,  slay, soul,  tablet, they, thing, (X she) will,  would have it.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, the "soul" (Hebrew: nefesh, and therefore, Greek: psuchee) is an "air-breather." The "spirit" (Hebrew: ruwach, and therefore, Greek: pneuma) is the "wind" or a "forceful breath," and we ARE a body; we don't HAVE a body. So, when a person dies, he or she "gives up the ghost" or "breathes his or her last (breath)," and ceases to be an "air-breather." In order for someone to have "everlasting life," God must intervene for that person and RESURRECT him or her, putting the "breath" (the "spirit") back into that person, and in the process make him or her both incorruptible and immortal. THEN AND ONLY THEN will they have "everlasting life."

Now, if you haven't been reading along with other threads in which I've written, then I know that this is a lot to take in one sitting. It may take weeks, months, or even YEARS before you can accept all this. (ADONAI knows it took years for me to get it.)

 

[missmuffet]

3 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, mismuffet.

No, I do NOT believe those who are raptured will go to heaven, and ... it's ENTIRELY biblical! They (and we) will go THROUGH the "heavens"; that is, they (and we) will go THROUGH the skies, with the messengers sent to retrieve them (and us), and they (and we) will all go to Israel to help the Messiah purge His Israel from those who will be trying to do the children of Israel permanent harm.

Think about what Yeshua` Himself said in Matthew 16:1-4:

Matthew 16:1-4
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek word: ouranos).
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky (Greek word: ouranos) is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek word: ouranos) is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek word: ouranos); but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV

They asked for a "sign from heaven" and He gave them one! "Red sky at night is a sailor's delight; red sky at morning, sailors take warning!" It's the SAME GREEK WORD in all four occurrences!

And, what about Peter's words during his first public address?

Acts 2:22-36
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ (the Messiah) to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ (the Messiah), that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ (Messiah).
KJV

David didn't "ascend into the heavens." Instead, he is "dead and buried," and they could go to his sepulchre for proof. And, Peter said this AFTER Yeshua`s resurrection and ascension!

"Heaven" is a misnomer. What most think about when they think of "Heaven" is the description in Revelation 21 and 22. Y'know, the pearly gates, the streets of gold, the throne of God and of the Lamb, etc? But, this is a description of the NEW JERUSALEM, not "Heaven!"

And, the New Jerusalem is our home-to-be when the New Earth and the New Sky are rebuilt out of the ashes of the second earth and sky in which we currently dwell after the global Fire that was promised in prophecy. See, the "third heaven" is not some place out there beyond the starry "second heaven" while the atmosphere around our planet is the "first heaven." Peter tells us a WHOLE DIFFERENT WAY TO LOOK AT IT:

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water (1st "heavens" or skies and 1st earth):
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished (THE FLOOD):
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now (2nd "heavens" or skies and 2nd earth), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (THE FIRE).
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (THE FIRE)
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness (3rd "heavens" or skies and 3rd earth).
KJV

It's not a "third heaven" spatially; it's a "third heaven or sky" CHRONOLOGICALLY! The word "ouranos," often translated "heaven," is a Greek word that means "the sky."

NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as NT:3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity):
KJV - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

There are other words that are made from this word, such as "mesouraneema," "ouranios," "ouranothen," "epouranios," but they are extensions of this word:

NT:3321 "Mesouraneema" is the Greek word meaning "the middle of the ouranos." Revelation 19:17 says that this is where the birds fly.

NT:3770 "Ouranios" means of or belonging to the "ouranos." It's just the adjective form of the word.

NT:3771 "Ouranothen" means "from ouranos," which means you have to know what "ouranos" is first.

NT:2032 "Epouranios" is also an adjective form but stems from the combination of "epi," which means "above" or "upon," and "ouranos." It means "of or belonging to" + "above the sky." In 1 Corinthians 15:39-40, Paul said it was where the sun, moon, and stars are. Hebrews 12:22 tells us it is where the New Jerusalem is. This word is talking about "space!"

However, beyond this last word, NONE of these words typically translated as "heaven," "heavens," or "heavenly," could refer strictly to a place beyond the stars!

We were NEVER instructed to anticipate "going to Heaven when we die!" Instead, we were constantly reminded to anticipate our RESURRECTION!

Look, how was Adam created?

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

The MAN, not "his body," was formed from the dust of the ground. God "puffed" into his nostrils the puff of life, and man became a living NEFESH, a living AIR-BREATHER! The Hebrew word "nefesh" comes from the verb "naafash":

OT:5314 naafash (naw-fash'); a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
KJV - (be) refresh selves (-ed).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Therefore, the word "nefesh" means...

OT:5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
KJV - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature,  dead (-ly), desire,  [dis-] contented,  fish, ghost,  greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath,  jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thyself-), them (your)- selves,  slay, soul,  tablet, they, thing, (X she) will,  would have it.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, the "soul" (Hebrew: nefesh, and therefore, Greek: psuchee) is an "air-breather." The "spirit" (Hebrew: ruwach, and therefore, Greek: pneuma) is the "wind" or a "forceful breath," and we ARE a body; we don't HAVE a body. So, when a person dies, he or she "gives up the ghost" or "breathes his or her last (breath)," and ceases to be an "air-breather." In order for someone to have "everlasting life," God must intervene for that person and RESURRECT him or her, putting the "breath" (the "spirit") back into that person, and in the process make him or her both incorruptible and immortal. THEN AND ONLY THEN will they have "everlasting life."

Now, if you haven't been reading along with other threads in which I've written, then I know that this is a lot to take in one sitting. It may take weeks, months, or even YEARS before you can accept all this. (ADONAI knows it took years for me to get it.)

 

No, like Rick said you have quite an imagination. But your interpretation of scripture is definitely not Biblical. What you want to do with that is your choice.

[Ezra]

2 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

But your interpretation of scripture is definitely not Biblical.

That's why you should not have duplicated his post. Retro believes that if he can obfuscate with a lengthy post, that will help his case. Sorry Retro, you are way off base.