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Defense for the Mass-Transit System Rapture


Retrobyter

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20 hours ago, Keras said:

Just as John prophesied: Matthew 3:12, and Luke 19:27, on the great Day of vengeance and wrath, the Sixth Seal. Revelation 6:12-17

Are you ready for that Day? 

Shalom, Keras.

LOL! I was born (again) ready!

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The Fiery Blast of the Lord: 

Ezekiel 22:15-16 I will disperse you Israelites among the nations, scattered over all the earth. I shall sift you to get rid of your defilement. Deut. 29:28, Amos 9:9-10

 The exile of Israel and Judah from the Holy Land was done in ancient times. Throughout the ages, righteous people have kept the faith and shone the light of the Gospel around the world and now we look expectantly for the fulfilment of the wonderful promises to all those who love the Lord and keep His commandments.

 

Ezekiel 22:17-22 To the Lord, all of the Israelis are but a debased alloy. So I shall gather you all into the Holy Land, as metal is refined in a crucible. I will fan the fire of My anger and wrath until you are melted. You will know that I the Lord, have poured out My anger upon you.   Isaiah 41:1-10, Amos 2:4-5, Romans 9:27

 This forthcoming fire judgement will affect the whole world, then as Ezekiel 20:34-38...I shall take you Israelites out of the nations.....gather you and judge you....those who rebel against Me will not enter the Land. Deuteronomy 30:1-10  But every born again Christian, from every race, nation and language, will join them. Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9-10 & 7:9

 

Ezekiel 22:24 The Lord says to the land of Israel: You have become like a land on which no rain has fallen, on the Day of My wrath.   Zephaniah 1:18, Ezekiel 20:47-48

    The Holy Land becomes ‘scorched and untrodden’ - Jer. 9:10-11. ...’dry and ruined, for fire has burned the trees and pastures’ - Joel 1:15-20

 

Ezekiel 22:25-29 The leaders in the land are like lions that take what they want and the priests give rulings that violate My Laws, they profane what is sacred. The people do not keep My Sabbaths in truth and God is dishonoured among them. Their prophets and seers speak lies and the common people use extortion and commit robbery, oppressing the poor and the alien, denying them justice.

   This is the situation worldwide, but particularly in all the area of the Holy Land. Jeremiah 25:29-30, Isaiah 22:12-14, Ezekiel 7:2-4]

 

Ezekiel 22:30-31 The Lord searches for anyone righteous who could stand before Him and plead for the people, to avert the destruction of the Land, but no such person can be found. Ezekiel 6:11-12 

So the Lord will pour out His wrath upon them and utterly consume them in His blazing anger, thus bringing down upon them the punishment they deserve.                                                                                  Ref: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged.

 

          The great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath:

This Day is described over 100 times in the Bible and is clearly prophesied to be a Coronal Mass Ejection; an explosion on the suns surface. Isaiah 30:26....the sun will shine seven times stronger. Psalms 50:1-6, Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7

All that area of Greater Israel will be cleared and cleansed, Deuteronomy 32:43 and after that many prophecies say how the Land will be quickly regenerated, then how all the Lord’s faithful Christian people will gather and settle there. Great will be the Day! 

  

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On 8/21/2016 at 11:18 PM, Retrobyter said:

God will resurrect those who sleep in Yeshua` and bring them with Yeshua` as He returns. They're not coming from anywhere else but the grave, the urn, or the sea and the wonderful memory of our great God ADONAI. The resurrection is an act of CREATION! He will do for us what He did for our ultimate ancestor, Adam; He will form our bodies of the dust of the ground, the ashes, or whatever materials at hand He may choose to use, and breathe into our nostrils the breath of life, and we shall be air-breathers (souls) once again. At least, that's what He WOULD do if He wasn't going to do more! 

Great post,the only part I don't agree with is people coming out of the graves as the dead are in Heaven,that's how He bring them with Him.

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

These souls were killed for their stand in the Word of God. Who could that be? The saints of God, for their souls are now at [not under] the altar of God in heaven. Those souls have died and are with the Father in Heaven.

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Their blood was shed on the earth, while at this time they are pleading at the altar of God in heaven. To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord [Ecclesiastes 12:7]. The time of revenge will come at God's appointed time. Before God, nobody gets away with anything.

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Satan was already on earth when God spoke to the seven churches, so think about this short season. A fellow servant is one just like yourself, if your are a Christian, they also were Christians. We know these souls are Christians, for they died for their testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ. If you stand for their testimony, then you are one of their fellow servants. They were killed just like those who are still alive have to be, then God will avenge.

This is the seal Jesus spoke of in Mark 13:9, when He was referring to those souls that were at the altar. This does not mean that all Christians will die of a physical death, but the reference here is whether they individually will stand and give their witness for God, as the Holy Spirit of God speaks through them.

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12 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Great post,the only part I don't agree with is people coming out of the graves as the dead are in Heaven,that's how He bring them with Him.

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

These souls were killed for their stand in the Word of God. Who could that be? The saints of God, for their souls are now at [not under] the altar of God in heaven. Those souls have died and are with the Father in Heaven.

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Their blood was shed on the earth, while at this time they are pleading at the altar of God in heaven. To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord [Ecclesiastes 12:7]. The time of revenge will come at God's appointed time. Before God, nobody gets away with anything.

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Satan was already on earth when God spoke to the seven churches, so think about this short season. A fellow servant is one just like yourself, if your are a Christian, they also were Christians. We know these souls are Christians, for they died for their testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ. If you stand for their testimony, then you are one of their fellow servants. They were killed just like those who are still alive have to be, then God will avenge.

This is the seal Jesus spoke of in Mark 13:9, when He was referring to those souls that were at the altar. This does not mean that all Christians will die of a physical death, but the reference here is whether they individually will stand and give their witness for God, as the Holy Spirit of God speaks through them.

Shalom, n2thelight.

That would be true IF you fell for the FALSE definition of a "soul" being the "immaterial part of a person." BUT, the "soul" is defined as...

OT:5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
KJV - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature,  dead (-ly), desire,  [dis-] contented,  fish, ghost,  greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath,  jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thyself-), them (your)- selves,  slay, soul,  tablet, they, thing, (X she) will,  would have it.

OT:5314 naafash (naw-fash'); a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
KJV - (be) refresh selves (-ed).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The "soul" is an "AIR-BREATHER!"

This is made even more clear in light of Adam's creation:

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man (note: not "the BODY of the man") of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became (note: not "ACQUIRED" or "RECEIVED") a living soul (Hebrew: nefesh).
KJV

So, the more likely scenario is that Revelation 6:9-11 is being misunderstood.

Consider the following interpretation:

Revelation 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls (the air-breathers) of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Yochanan (John) saw under the PHYSICAL altar on earth, not in "heaven," the recently resurrected "air-breathers" of those who had been killed for the Word of God and for their testimony

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Their cry for vengeance is not about a delay of their resurrection; it's about a delay of God's judgment on those who were responsible for their deaths who still lived on the earth!

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
KJV

It's hard to wear "white robes" with nothing to support them! It's also hard to REST for ANY length of time without a body that can rest! And, nothing in this verse requires the martyrs to still be dead. There are just more that must also be killed ... and resurrected, too!

I actually find Ecclesiastes 12:7 to be in sync with Genesis 2:7 above:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (Hebrew: ruwach = "wind/breath") shall return unto God who gave it.
KJV

The "wind" or "breath" is "given up" by the breather (ceasing to breathe) and returns to God who is in the skies! (He's actually everywhere, but the biggest VISIBLE volumes are the skies, both the daytime sky and the nighttime sky, and He's definitely there at least!)

The verse that says, "To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord," is 2 Corinthians 5:8. Here it is in context:

2 Corinthians 5:8-10
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ (of the Messiah); that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
KJV

This happens AFTER the Resurrection and DURING the Millennium, not in "Heaven!" And, I find this verse HIGHLY ENCOURAGING! We will close our eyes in death, and "immediately" re-open them in the Resurrection! It also explains better what Yeshua` was saying to the repentant thief on the cross,

Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said unto him,
Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
KJV

For the thief, it would be "today!"

Mark 13:9, by the way, is part of the Olivet Discourse and has much in common with Matthew 24. He was NOT talking about the distant future to His disciples at that point! He was talking to THEM about THEIR near future! In Mark 13:9, the Greek pronouns employed are humeis, heautous, and humas, forms of "you" plural! He was talking DIRECTLY TO THEM, not all "Christians" in general! This was a prophecy for them in the FIRST CENTURY, not in our future!

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21 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, n2thelight.

That would be true IF you fell for the FALSE definition of a "soul" being the "immaterial part of a person." BUT, the "soul" is defined as...

I'll agree to disagree as I see scripture saying we were never meant to made flesh anyway,in other words we return to how we were before the rebellion of satan.

I see it as we don't have a soul,we are a soul.

thx for the response

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On 8/4/2017 at 11:37 PM, n2thelight said:

I'll agree to disagree as I see scripture saying we were never meant to made flesh anyway,in other words we return to how we were before the rebellion of satan.

I see it as we don't have a soul,we are a soul.

thx for the response

Shabbat shalom, n2thelight.

But, we've been all through that! You have NOTHING in Scripture to "support" that belief except some misinterpreted Scripture! Believe what you will, but just know that you were told the truth, once. I just don't understand why you would rigidly and stubbornly stick to that belief.

And, no, we are NOT a "soul" as a "nonphysical, 'spiritual' part of a human being." We ARE, however, a "soul" in the sense of being an "air-breathing created being," a "living body that breathes!"

Edited by Retrobyter
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On 8/5/2017 at 10:44 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, n2thelight.

But, we've been all through that! You have NOTHING in Scripture to "support" that belief except some misinterpreted Scripture! Believe what you will, but just know that you were told the truth, once. I just don't understand why you would rigidly and stubbornly stick to that belief.

And, no, we are NOT a "soul" as a "nonphysical, 'spiritual' part of a human being." We ARE, however, a "soul" in the sense of being an "air-breathing created being," a "living body that breathes!"

Yes we've been through this,you call it misinterpreted ,I counter with eye's to see.

When angels came down from heaven,what body did they have?

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On 8/7/2017 at 11:33 PM, n2thelight said:

Yes we've been through this,you call it misinterpreted ,I counter with eye's to see.

When angels came down from heaven,what body did they have?

Shalom, n2thelight.

See? Even your question is bogus! The word "angels," in the OT the word is "mal`akhiym" and in the NT the word is "aggeloi," means "MESSENGERS!" Typically, for one to understand a messenger, they need to be able to speak to us in our language. Therefore, it is most likely that these "messengers" would be sent looking like human beings. They may have even BEEN human beings!

HOWEVER, the word "seraf" ("seraph") means a "burning one," and frequently it is pictured as a snake with four wings! A "keruv" ("cherub") is an OX with six wings, having four faces! It is seen standing on two legs with "straight feet," and having "hands" under their wings.

So, what are YOU thinking they had?

"Came down from heaven" simply means that they came down from the "sky"; it does NOT mean that they came down from "God's abode!"

Also, if they are "air-breathers" or "souls," they don't HAVE a body; they ARE a body!

You've got to have a HUGE batch of preconceived notions to think you've received ANY information on "angels" from the Scriptures YOU'RE investigating!

And, if you're going to pull Jeremiah 4 out of your hat again, then, yes, it IS misinterpreted! You have no "eyes to see" if you think that Jeremiah 4 is talking about ANYTHING other than the invasion from Babylon that Jeremiah experienced!

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On 8/13/2017 at 8:14 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, n2thelight.

See? Even your question is bogus! The word "angels," in the OT the word is "mal`akhiym" and in the NT the word is "aggeloi," means "MESSENGERS!" Typically, for one to understand a messenger, they need to be able to speak to us in our language. Therefore, it is most likely that these "messengers" would be sent looking like human beings. They may have even BEEN human beings!

HOWEVER, the word "seraf" ("seraph") means a "burning one," and frequently it is pictured as a snake with four wings! A "keruv" ("cherub") is an OX with six wings, having four faces! It is seen standing on two legs with "straight feet," and having "hands" under their wings.

So, what are YOU thinking they had?

"Came down from heaven" simply means that they came down from the "sky"; it does NOT mean that they came down from "God's abode!"

Also, if they are "air-breathers" or "souls," they don't HAVE a body; they ARE a body!

You've got to have a HUGE batch of preconceived notions to think you've received ANY information on "angels" from the Scriptures YOU'RE investigating!

And, if you're going to pull Jeremiah 4 out of your hat again, then, yes, it IS misinterpreted! You have no "eyes to see" if you think that Jeremiah 4 is talking about ANYTHING other than the invasion from Babylon that Jeremiah experienced!

:D

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On 8/22/2016 at 2:01 AM, Guest Robert said:

1) What you have quoted does not support Jesus transporting the saints in the Rapture to the Holy land.

Shalom, Guest Robert.

First, let me apologize for the lateness of this post; I fully intended to answer your post long ago, but as J. R. R. Tolkien once said through his character Butterbur the innkeeper at the Prancing Pony, "one thing drives out another." However, I fully intend to make amends, if I can, and get this thread back on track.

The truth is that this passage quoted (1 Thes. 4:13-17) does NOT fully "support Jesus transporting the saints in the Rapture to the Holy Land." HOWEVER, on the other hand, nor does it DENY it! It certainly does NOT support "Jesus taking us to Heaven with Him!" All it says is that, WHEREVER He may go from there, we will be with Him!

"...and so shall we ever be with the Lord (Yeshua` or Jesus)."

Thus, we must get our information about WHAT Yeshua` (Jesus) does and WHEN from other sources, as well.

Quote

2) Where do you think Jesus is going to be during the Tribulation? Scripture clearly shows Him IN HEAVEN during the Tribulation:

" After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance. Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads." (Revelation 4:1-4, NASB, emphasis mine)

..

This establishes that God's throne is in Heaven. Next, we see Jesus in Heaven, to take the scroll and break the seals:

"And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." (Revelation 5:6-8, NASB, emphasis mine)

...

Revelation 7 shows once again the Lamb and the throne:

" After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying,
      “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.” 
(Revelation 7:9-12, NASB, emphasis mine)

Oh, I quite agree with your assessment that Yeshua` will be in the heavens (particularly, in the New Jerusalem) during the Tribulation period; HOWEVER, that also was WAY before His Second Coming and the Rapture! See, you're ASSUMING that "the Tribulation comes AFTER the Rapture." I don't believe that is true.

When the voice says, "Come up hither," or "Come up here," that's in the SINGULAR number in Greek, specifically, the "active, imperative, aorist tense, 2nd person, singular," according to BibleHub! This is a command made to Yochanan (John) himself, not to all. It is NOT a "Rapture" reference!

We also see that this "door standing open in heaven" is NOT a "door" in the PLACE called "Heaven," but is a "doorWAY," a "PASSAGEWAY" THROUGH the skies. The Greek word for "heaven" here is still the simple word "ouranos." "En too ouranoo," is the locative case phrase that means "in the sky." The Greek word for "door" is "thura" and is also found in Matt. 27:60...

Kata Maththaion 27:60
60 Kai etheeken auto en too kainoo autou mneemeioo ho elatomeesen en tee petra, kai proskulisas lithon megon tee thura tou mneemeiou apeelthen.
UBS Greek New Testament

Here, one can see that the stone was rolled to the "DOORWAY" of the sepulchre, not to its "DOOR!" The large stone (lithon megonWAS the "door!"

The word translated in the NASB as "standing open" and in the KJV as "was opened" is the Greek word "eeneoogmenee" which is the perfect participle in the middle or passive voice. It stands with the noun "thura" as the singular, feminine nominative. It doesn't "stand" at all, "open" or otherwise. It means that the doorway or passageway has "been opened" already, by the time Yochanan's (John's) attention is drawn to it.

Quote

And Rev. 19 has this to say:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” (Revelation 19:11-16, NASB, emphasis mine)

So Jesus does indeed return to Heaven; He doesn't remain here on earth, and we don't go somewhere else on Earth during the Tribulation.

Again, you're starting with the premise that "heaven" is a PLACE! What if, as I have said, the "heaven," the Greek words, "ton ouranon" in this accusative case, is simply "the sky," as Yeshua` HIMSELF used the word in Matthew 16:1-4?

Matthew 16:1-4
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. (That's how YOU use the word, too!)
2 He answered and said unto them,
When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.
And he left them, and departed.
KJV

In all four of the places highlighted, the word "ouranos" was used! They asked Him for a sign from "ouranos." He gave them "Red ouranos at night is a sailor's delight; red ouranos at morning, sailors take warning!"

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Another point: "For the word of the Lord has sounded forth from you, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone forth, so that we have no need to say anything. For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:8-10, NASB, emphasis mine)

Not "through", not "during", but "from the wrath to come". We are not "protected through it", but delivered from it.

 

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There is also the issue of the Restrainer: It has to be the Holy Spirit, as it takes a person of superior power to restrain an individual such as Satan. Even Michael the Archangel would not argue with Satan when contending with the body of Moses, but said "The Lord rebuke you" (Jude 1:9 to be exact). And scripture is clear that A) He would never leave us nor forsake us, and B) the Restrainer would be removed before the unveiling of the Man of Lawlessness (Antichrist). So, if the Lord has promised to never leave us (and the Holy Spirit is God), and the only one who can be the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit (who must be "taken out of the way" before the AC can show up), then either 1): God breaks His promise; or 2) We're not here for the Tribulation.

You're making several mistakes at once. First of all, "the Holy Spirit is God," as you said. Then, if He is God, isn't He omnipresent, that is, everywhere at the same time? If so, then how can He be "taken out of the way" at all?! Wouldn't that be impossible? No, the Holy Spirit is NOT the "Restrainer." Isn't He part of the Living God who judges the world? He is GOD, who is Judge, Jury, and Executioner! Then, why would He have to be removed? He would be a VITAL PART of the destruction to come! Isn't God the One who is present with those who are in the Lake of Fire to see to it that they get the punishments they deserve? It will be HIS righteous fury against them that will be exacted!

Secondly, you are again ASSUMING that the Tribulation comes AFTER your Rapture. (It does NOT! We're already IN the Tribulation! It started in the First Century A.D. and will continue until the Jews of Jerusalem say, "Baruwkh haba' bshem YHWH." It's the time of Jacob's Trouble! That is NOT one of the purposes for the 70th Week of Daniel 9, which Yeshua` Himself split in half; the first half while He was here for His First Advent, and the second half when He returns at His Second Advent. Matt. 23:37-39.)

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Now, a question for folks who think we will be here for the Tribulation....

Is the Blood of Christ enough, or do you think that salvation is somehow lacking without our "adding to it"?

If that is the case: then why are the saints who have gone before us not resurrected to suffer in the Tribulation as well, seeing as there was no time like it before, nor would there be again? Do we think the suffering in their lives was worse than what those in the tribulation would endure?

Something to think on...

You're forgetting whose side you're on! Those who are resurrected PARTICIPATE in the armies which follow Yeshua`! "Suffer in the Tribulation as well"? No, we'll be participating with Him who brings on the suffering!

Edited by Retrobyter
  • This is Worthy 1
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