The Gathering of the Elect Is the Second Resurrection

[Marcus O'Reillius]

11 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

How do you know that there was a "Heaven before there was a sky?"

Where were they before there was a sky?

They most certainly were before the Father formed time, matter, and space.  

 

[Retrobyter]

26 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Where were they before there was a sky?

They most certainly were before the Father formed time, matter, and space.  

 

Shabbat shalom, Marcus.

Who are "they?" And, were "they" immobile without time and space?

Also, are you telling me that you get your view from fragments of info in the Bible, a non-canonicle source (the book of Enoch), and YOUR OWN imagination?

Wikipedia gives this:

The Book of Enoch (also 1 Enoch;^[1] Ge'ez: መጽሐፈ ሄኖክ mätṣḥäfä henok) is an ancient Jewish religious work, ascribed by tradition to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah, although modern scholars estimate the older sections (mainly in the Book of the Watchers) to date from about 300 BC, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably to the first century BC.^[2]

It is not part of the biblical canon as used by Jews, apart from Beta Israel. Most Christian denominations and traditions may accept the Books of Enoch as having some historical or theological interest, but they generally regard the Books of Enoch as non-canonical or non-inspired.^[3] It is regarded as canonical by the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church, but not by any other Christian groups.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Retrobyter
to add info about book of Enoch

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Who are "they?" And, were "they" immobile without time and space?

Are you going to tell me that you can't figure out "they" are the triune godhead?

Where were the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost before the Father brought time, matter, and space into existence at once? 

Are you going to insist they were in a vacuum unable to move about?  I didn't think so.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

 fragments of info in the Bible, a non-canonicle source (the book of Enoch), and YOUR OWN imagination?

Fragments?  Roy, it's more than that, now be fair.

The disciples were familiar with the book of Enoch.  It's in the Bible.  I read it once and I did not find anything heretical in the Ethiopian book upon a casual reading.

It's not my imagination.  You're not being fair here either.  It's a fact that where God is, was there before here was here.  And some of that IS described in the Bible.  Some more is described in the book of Enoch.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marcus.

Okay, I'll be fair. First of all, the seventh from Adam, Chanokh, was before the Flood. This book of "Enoch" was written sometime in the 300's B.C. Sure, the disciples could have been familiar with the book of Enoch, but did they trust it as God's Word?

Did you ever wonder where the notion of "Sons of God" being "angels" came from? It didn't come from Genesis! It came from this untrustworthy book! There's a simpler, better explanation for Genesis 6. The "sons of God" was a TERM OF PREJUDICE! (Typical for human beings, isn't it?) They weren't "angels"; they were human beings who thought they were better than other human beings!

Look, the line of Qayin (Cain) went underground:

Let's look at the contextual clues:

Genesis 4:8-26
8 And Cain (Hebrew: Qayin = "jealous; envious") talked with Abel (Hebrew: Hevel = "emptiness; vanity") his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done?
(clue 1) the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground (Hebrew: min haa'adaamaah = from the-red-[ground]).
11 And
(clue 2) now art thou cursed from the earth (Hebrew: min haa'adaamaah = from the-red-[ground]), which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
12 (clue 3) When thou tillest the ground (Hebrew: haa'adaamaah = the-red-[ground], it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength;
(clue 4) a fugitive (Hebrew: naa` = "waverer; meanderer")
(clue 5) and a vagabond (Hebrew: vaanaad = "and-an-escapee; runaway") shalt thou be
(clue 6) in the earth. (Hebrew: baa'aarets = in-the-earth/land/soil)
13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear (heavier than I can carry).
14 Behold,
(clue 7) thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth (Hebrew: mee`al pneey haa'adaamaah = from-upon [the]-surface of-the-ground); and
(clue 8) from thy face shall I be hid (Hebrew: uwmipaneykhaa ecaateer = and-from-your-face I-shall-be-hidden/concealed); and
(clue 9) I shall be a fugitive (Hebrew: naa`) 
(clue 10) and a vagabond (Hebrew: vaanaad)
(clue 11) in the earth (Hebrew: baa'aarets); and it shall come to pass, that
(clue 12) every one that findeth me (Hebrew: mots'iy = finds-me) shall slay me.
15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain,
(clue 13) lest any finding him (Hebrew: mots'ow = finds-him) should kill him.
16 (clue 14) And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD (milipneey YHWH = from-[the]-face of-YHWH), and
(clue 15) dwelt in the land of Nod (Hebrew: Nowd = Escape; Wandering), on the east of Eden.
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he (Qayin) builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch (Hebrew: Chanokh = "Narrow").
18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.
19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.
21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubal-cain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah.
23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.
24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth (Hebrew: Sheet [pronounced "shayt"] = "put; substituted"): For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos (Hebrew: Enowsh = "a-mortal"): then began men to call upon the name of the LORD (Hebrew: liqro' b-shem YHWH = "to-call-out in-name/authority of-YHWH").
KJV

Thus, the point of this whole conversation was to note that Qayin would no longer be able to stay ABOVE GROUND! Therefore, the city he built, Chanokh, meaning "Narrow," would have been an UNDERGROUND CITY! After a while, what happens to people who are hiding underground? They are BLANCHED - NO SUNLIGHT!

Later, when Lamekh (Lamech) and his family have to leave Chanokh to avoid family vengeance, because Lamekh killed a person in self-defence, one of his sons becomes "the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle" when they have emerged. Then we read this in Genesis 6:

Genesis 6:1-7
1 And it came to pass, when men (those who had been underground) began to multiply on the (sur)face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God (those who had been living on the surface) saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
KJV

Thus, the "sons of God," those who were blessed to live above ground in the sunlight, took BY FORCE the "daughters of men" who were "cursed" to live underground with their ancestor, Qayin, and they MADE THEM their wives. These were "giants," "haNefaliym!" They became "heroes, men of renown," famous mighty men. The word "nefaliym" means "fellers" or "loggers" or "lumberjacks!" It's not the name of a race; it's the name of an OCCUPATION! The trees were ABOVE GROUND! Thus, these guys were strong and rough and had a reputation! The thing that God couldn't stand in Genesis 6:4-7 was that they were PRAISED for their practice of this form of slavery!

This scenario fits the facts better and is a WHOLE lot easier to swallow than that "angels married women" nonsense, invented NOT 6000 years ago but in the 300s B.C! Isn't this scenario more true to human nature without involving "angels?"

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Brevity, Roy, brevity.

Your obtuse reply is unreadable and will go unread.

My point is the Father, Son, and Spirit lived in Heaven before the sky was created.