The Christian identity and the term "sinner"

[Khristeeanos]

Maybe I should post this in Controversial topics ha ha. 

I am going to make a strong claim and I am not on a soapbox to prove anyone or their theology wrong. This is to gain clarification for what I am leaning towards believing and to test it against people who are engaged in Christian discussions about all manner of topics. So here it goes...

I can only find one New Covenant reference where an argument can be made that Christians are identified by the term "sinner" or "sinners" and that is in 1st John 4.  A large number of epistles start out by calling Christians "saints" but not sinners.  Yes we still sin and we struggle with the flesh, but we have been made into new creations with the Spirit of God within us. We have a new source to draw our identity and desires from.  In Romans 7 when Paul says he struggles with the flesh and sins pay special attention to the phrase he uses twice "It is no longer I that do it but sin living in me." which is opposite of saying "I am the sinner." 

When I say New Covenant I mean after the death of Jesus, not the majority of the Gospels.

So what do you all think? Can a case be made for this or is this just total heresy in your eyes?

[Guest shiloh357]

6 minutes ago, Khristeeanos said:

Maybe I should post this in Controversial topics ha ha. 

I am going to make a strong claim and I am not on a soapbox to prove anyone or their theology wrong. This is to gain clarification for what I am leaning towards believing and to test it against people who are engaged in Christian discussions about all manner of topics. So here it goes...

I can only find one New Covenant reference where an argument can be made that Christians are identified by the term "sinner" or "sinners" and that is in 1st John 4.  A large number of epistles start out by calling Christians "saints" but not sinners.  Yes we still sin and we struggle with the flesh, but we have been made into new creations with the Spirit of God within us. We have a new source to draw our identity and desires from.  In Romans 7 when Paul says he struggles with the flesh and sins pay special attention to the phrase he uses twice "It is no longer I that do it but sin living in me." which is opposite of saying "I am the sinner." 

When I say New Covenant I mean after the death of Jesus, not the majority of the Gospels.

So what do you all think? Can a case be made for this or is this just total heresy in your eyes?

Paul called himself, in the present tense, the chief of sinners.

[Ezra]

8 minutes ago, Khristeeanos said:

Maybe I should post this in Controversial topics ha ha. 

This is not controversial at all.  You are perfectly correct in concluding that those who are saved are NOT to be labeled as sinners, since they are called saints by God.

But since the old sin nature has not been eradicated, saints can and do sin, and must examine themselves daily, but particularly before partaking of the Lord's Supper (1 Cor 11:26-29).

26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

[Khristeeanos]

3 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Paul called himself, in the present tense, the chief of sinners.

Could it be in a different context though? Paul was in a unique position to snuff our the Church as it was gaining momentum. He hated Christians and attempted to murder them. He was present when (Phillip) was stoned to death. And he begins most of his letters by calling people saints and one of my favorite passages is Ephesians 4:20-24 where he gives instructions about how to become more holy because that is why we were created. 

I guess my main point here would be best asked instead of stated. 

Did Paul ever call other Christians sinners?

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, Khristeeanos said:

Could it be in a different context though? Paul was in a unique position to snuff our the Church as it was gaining momentum. He hated Christians and attempted to murder them. He was present when (Phillip) was stoned to death. And he begins most of his letters by calling people saints and one of my favorite passages is Ephesians 4:20-24 where he gives instructions about how to become more holy because that is why we were created. 

I guess my main point here would be best asked instead of stated. 

Did Paul ever call other Christians sinners?

Saint and sinner are not mutually exclusive terms.  Saint is actually a secular word that Paul adopted.  It simply means set apart.   I am set apart from the world, but that fact doesn't mean I am not a sinner.   Paul referred to  congregations as saints, corporately.   We don't find the NT writers referring to  St. Peter, or St. Matthew, or St. John.   That's a purely Catholic thing.   Saint and sinner are not opposite terms.

Paul said he was the chief of sinners, not before he was saved but AFTER he was saved.  Context doesn't change that, but reinforces that.   He didn't say he WAS chief of sinners, but said it of himself as an apostle of the Lord.

[Khristeeanos]

But did Paul ever call Christians sinners? 

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, Khristeeanos said:

But did Paul ever call Christians sinners? 

Doesn't make any difference.  Saint and sinner are not mutually exclusive terms.  So calling them saints doesn't mean they are not sinners.  We still sin and we still war with the flesh, and we still fail when it comes to serving the Lord.

[Khristeeanos]

1 minute ago, shiloh357 said:

Doesn't make any difference.  Saint and sinner are not mutually exclusive terms.  So calling them saints doesn't mean they are not sinners.  We still sin and we still war with the flesh, and we still fail when it comes to serving the Lord.

I fully agree that we all still sin and war with the flesh. We always will on this side of life. No question about it. I do disagree that it doesn't matter that Paul didn't once call another Christian a sinner. I think the position I am taking up for this discussion is that while we still sin, that doesn't make us sinners. We have a new and good heart that is the place where God dwells and it teaches us how to say no to sin. Again, not that we can attain sinlessness, but that we are becoming more like Christ when we are with Christ learning to be more like Him.

[missmuffet]

Question: "Are Christians sinners, saints, or both?"

Answer: Christians are both sinners and saints. All human beings are sinners because we are born in sin. But not all humans are saints. According to the Bible, a saint is not someone who has done wonderful things, nor is it someone who has been deemed a saint by a church or organization. The word translated “saint” in the New Testament, hagios, literally means “sacred, physically pure; morally blameless or religious; ceremonially consecrated; holy.” In the context of New Testament passages, saints are those who belong to the body of Christ, saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8–9). In other words, saint is another word for a Christian, a true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is a clear biblical truth that all are born in sin and all have a sin nature. Scripture says that God created humankind originally good and without a sin nature: "Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.’ . . . God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them” (Genesis 1:26–27). However, Genesis 3 records the fall of Adam and Eve, and with that fall sin entered into the two previously sinless creatures. And when they had children, their sin nature was passed along to their offspring. Thus, every human being is a sinner.

http://www.gotquestions.org/sinners-saints.html

Saints, on the other hand, are not born saints; they become saints by being reborn. Because we have all “sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), we are all in need of spiritual rebirth, without which we will continue in our sinful state throughout eternity. But God, in His great mercy and grace, has provided the (only) means for turning a sinner into a saint—the Lord Jesus Christ, who came “to give His life as a ransom for many.” When we confess our need for a Savior from sin and accept His sacrifice on the cross on our behalf, we become saints.

There is no hierarchy of saints. All who belong to Christ by faith are saints, and none of us are more “saintly” than our Christian brothers and sisters. The apostle Paul, who is no more of a saint than the most obscure Christian, begins his first letter to the Corinthian church by declaring that they were “sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 1:2, emphasis added). In this verse, hagios is translated “saints,” “holy,” and “sanctified” in different Bible versions, leading to the unmistakable conclusion that all who have ever called upon Christ for salvation are saints, made holy by the Lord. We are all “fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God” (Ephesians 2:19).

We are not saints because we have been declared to be saints by a church, nor can we work our way to sainthood. Once we are saved by faith, however, we are called to certain actions befitting our calling as saints of God. “But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: ‘Be holy, because I am holy’” (1 Peter 1:15–16). Saints are not sinless, but the lives of saints do reflect the reality of the presence of Christ in our hearts, in whom we “live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28).

[Flsnookman]

Once saved we are no longer sinners. Our sinful old self is crucified and the new creation is risen up in Christ. It is very difficult to accept that we are no longer sinners because our flesh still is wicked but that is NOT our true identity once saved. The Word says that we are the righteousness of God in Christ (2 Cor 5:21) and that we are spiritually in Heaven right now (Phi 3:20). It also states we are as Jesus is here in this world (1 John 4:17). 

So many (myself included) have been taught for so long that we are still sinners but that is a lie. I know it does not "feel" like we are righteous and we often do not "think" we are Holy but I am learning that when God says something and I "feel" or "think" something else one of us is mistaken..(it isn't God).

The entire gospel of Jesus Christ is about coming to believe we are who God says we are. It is only when we realize we are righteous and worthy and loved that we can follow Jesus' commandments to love God and love others. It is a very difficult concept and most will not grasp it. In fact many will become so offended by it that they will attack anyone who repeats it. They attacked Paul and everyone since but that is ok also as the Word says that is exactly what will happen.

When one comes to know their true identity then any power any other human has over them is gone. Those in power cant have that and those still in bondage get very envious. That is sad because it is Truth and available to all who would hear it. Once we start walking in the light of the Truth then amazing things start to happen. Sadly as the Word also predicts very few will be able to put aside what they think and feel and rely on faith in what they can not see, the road is indeed narrow.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Flsnookman