What do you think about Boundaries?

[Running Gator]

8 hours ago, GoldenEagle said:

Since Gary Collins article from 1975 in Christianity Today, in 1977 Lawrence J. Crabb suggested there are 4 positions on Christian counseling. Again, so we are not talking over each other and we understand each other's perspective I will summarize:

A. Separate but Equal. The bible and theology are considered valid in the areas in which they speak, and psychology is considered valid in the area in which it speaks.

B. Tossed salad. Crabb suggests that this approach is like a salad bowl in which a variety of ingredients are thrown into the bowl and tossed about. The problem with the tossed salad approach is that psychological notions are often accepted uncritically and without an understanding of the conflicting world views (i.e., humanism, existentialism, modernism, etc.) which are often represented in psychology. Consequently a number of unbiblical ideas may creep into this counseling.

C. Nothing buttery. In this approach the Christian counselor accepts nothing but the scripture as the basis for Christian counseling. The writing of Jay Adams would fall in to this category. Adams suggests that psychology has nothing to offer the Christian counselor, and psychology is always in conflict with biblical ideas. If one is true to this position there is never a need to study any counseling approaches, medicine or psychology.

D. Spoiling the Egyptians. In this approach the Christian counselor is first thoroughly grounded in the Word of God. Just as God made provision for the Israelites carried out of Egypt the spoils the Christian counselor critiques the findings of modern psychology and takes from them tools which are consistent with our Biblical world view. The Word of God is absolute in authority, and the only truly and fully reliable source of knowledge. Psychology on the other hand is a field that attempts to use the scientific method to investigate a variety of man’s problems, and seeks to determine what works in helping people resolve their problems. This approach recognizes that scripture is “ALL TRUTH,” but may not contain “all truth”. Knowledge exists beyond the scripture about many subjects including psychology, medicine, family life, etc. The Christian counselor operating from this approach takes what is useful and consistent with scripture while discarding the rest.

Note: This is also taken from the link mentioned previously. 

@Openly Curious, @missmuffet, @natasha, @Ezra, @RustyAngeL, @Yowm, @Out of the Shadows (or anyone else in the thread) Which of these A, B, C, D most closely represents your view on Christian Counseling? 

God bless,

GE

What I have seen of Christian counseling is the "nothing buttery" approach, and personally I do not like it.  In the churches I attended any counselling was done by the pastor(s), and none had any special training for doing such a thing.   

[Guest shiloh357]

8 hours ago, GoldenEagle said:

That is one position on counseling for sure "strictly Biblical counseling by godly spiritual leaders". But not the only one. I'm curious where do you get the idea that this particular type of Christian counseling is what the Lord expects? What passages of the Bible lead you to that conclusion? 

Nouthetic counselors and Biblical counselors are the same vein of thought in Christian Counseling. However, it is just one of the 5 categories of modern day Christian counseling. So we are not talking over each other and we understand each other's perspective I will summarize:

In a classic article written for Christianity Today in 1975, Gary Collins suggested that today’s Christian counselors fall into five categories. 

1. The Main Stream Pastoral Counselors. Main stream pastoral counselors generally have taken Clinical Pastoral Education training (CPE for short). The CPE approach takes a pastor with a theological education through an essentially "secular" training program in counseling. The tendency is towards theologically liberal stances and antagonistic toward more conservative evangelical theology. Evangelicals have increasingly steered away from the clinical pastoral education movement.

2. Evangelical Pastoral Counselors. The most outspoken of such counselors is Jay Adams, professor of practical theology at Westminster Seminary. Adams advocates Biblical Counseling, in which only the bible is used to support a counseling approach that is primarily educational and confrontational. Seminaries have strongly embraced the evangelical pastoral counseling movement in counseling. (Also known as Nouthetic Counseling.) 

3. Christian Professionals. Examples of the Christian professionals would include Clyde Narramore (considered to be the father of Christian counseling), James Dobson, Bruce Narramore, Frank Minority, Paul Meier, and Gary Collins. The Christian professionals have been trained and have received degrees and credentials in the secular counseling approaches, but who also have a strong commitment to Biblical evangelical theology. Each of these counselors have developed a model for integrating their knowledge and skills from the field of psychology with Biblical truth. Seminaries have also strongly embraced the Christian Professional movement in counseling. Many seminaries have developed masters and doctoral programs integrating both theology and the practice of psychology and counseling. (What I typically think of and will refer to as Christian Counselors.)

4. Theoretician Researchers. The theoretician researchers are those who have taken a scientific, scholarly, and research approach. These are generally university professors who are in the process of developing and testing theories. 

5. Evangelical popularizers. The evangelical popularizers would include Tim LaHay, Charlie Shedd, and Norman Wright. The evangelical popularizers produce useful but simplistic self help material for the lay public.

Edited and summarized from this article: http://christianfamilyinstitute.com/are-there-different-types-of-christian-counseling/

Thoughts on these 5 perspectives by Gary Collins?

God bless,
GE

Christian counseling needs to be left to professional, licensed Christian counselors, not pastors.   Many pastors are not trained and unless one has specialized in counseling, they are in no position to be a counselor.   No few number of pastors have gotten themselves into legal hot water counseling someone when they were not qualified to be in that position.  God has gifted counselors with the training and passion for helping others and we need defer to them when appropriate.

[Running Gator]

7 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Christian counseling needs to be left to professional, licensed Christian counselors, not pastors.   Many pastors are not trained and unless one has specialized in counseling, they are in no position to be a counselor.   No few number of pastors have gotten themselves into legal hot water counseling someone when they were not qualified to be in that position.  God has gifted counselors with the training and passion for helping others and we need defer to them when appropriate.

I knew there had to be something we agreed on!  And now I found it! 

[Openly Curious]

10 hours ago, GoldenEagle said:

 

In Chapter 1 the author speaks of a lady named Sherrie who has a hard time knowing what are her responsibilities and what aren't. She has the problem that she can't say no to people.

Her Mom 
Showing up unannounced on a school night. Staying all evening and guilting Sherrie into not finishing her daughter's costume for the school play. 

Her child - Todd
She was not able to say no to her son who in turn expected everyone to cater to his needs. The result is an undisciplined child who still has a hard time adjusting socially and has problems following directions in 3rd grade. The child's response to not getting what he wanted was World War 2 all over again. Hello temper tantrums! 

Her boss - Jeff
Giving her 5 hours worth of work crunching numbers and creating a report that should've been his responsibility at 4pm in the afternoon and expecting it the next morning to be finished. 

Her Husband - Walt
Walt had issues with his temper and didn't really spend time with his wife. 

Chapter 2 explains how boundaries work. The example is given of a young man in his mid-twenties still living at home, facing drug issues, paying bills, trouble finishing college, moving out on his own, and taking responsibility for his own life. 

Here's a good summary from the book that helps explain boundaries:

If our lives would be compared to a "house", we can only affect those things within our fences. One person is the owner. He or she can have assistants. When we try to go digging and molding other's property is when complications, frustrations, and misunderstanding occur. When we try to be the Holy Spirit or the "house" owner in someone's life then that is where the issues begin or increase.

That really resonated with me.

I have to be responsible for my actions, feelings, words, and thoughts. I cannot be responsible for the actions, feelings words, and thoughts of others.  

God bless,
GE

If we as individual believers walk in obedience to the Word of God patterning our lives around it then we are walking in the Spirit.  As a result the Holy Spirit in us will affect those around us by the things we do or don't do around them.  Our actions will and do affect the actions, feelings, words and thoughts of others.  Sometimes as an individual believer in setting forth those boundaries we have to take a stand and speak out against sin set forth in God's Word speaking the truth in love.  In doing so the truth will affect others one way or the other as they will receive or reject it some will get angry even but it is for sure our gospel message will be effectual either way. 

There is a balance.

[Ezra]

5 hours ago, Out of the Shadows said:

and none had any special training for doing such a thing.   

This mindset implies that the so-called special training of modern psychology and psychiatry has more merit than the work of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The religious leaders of Christ's day also asked Him if He had any special training.

Christians should clearly understand that all mental and emotional problems are ultimately spiritual.  This view is rejected by secular counselors.

[GoldenEagle]

16 hours ago, Yowm said:

GE, you've read the book and I assume the bible. What did the author say that wasn't in the bible?

 

14 hours ago, Openly Curious said:

GE

What do you think about boundaries now that you have read the book?  

What advice or counsel was given by the author of the book that would not be found in the bible?  

For the bible sets boundaries for believers to follow concerning our body, soul and spirit.  The bible gives the believers instructions or counsel in godly living.  

The world gives counsel but does not include the will of God it is worldly or earthly advice.  It can be useful at times as we live in the world but are not of this world.  But the natural mind does not understand the things of the spirit therefore we must as believers rely upon the Word of God.  As man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

@Yowm and @Openly Curious it's taking me a bit but here's what I have so far in response to these questions. The Bible is a very big and complex book on many subjects. I think this topical book on Boundaries has helped me understand boundaries better and dig deeper into God's Word. Much like you would use a math book to understand math concepts. Or you might use a commentary from a trusted pastor to get perspective on a particular book of the Bible. Anyway, I digress...

 

Boundaries: Book Introduction

Boundaries are invisible property lines, invisible fences that define where my property begins and where my property ends.

They show people where my responsibility for me begins and where my responsibility for others ends.

Boundaries show others what I am responsible for and what they are not responsible for.

Boundaries help us keep the good in and the bad out. They guard our treasures so that people will not steal them. (Matthew 7:6; and KJV version here)

 

God Himself has boundaries. He is our example. He defines himself as a distinct, separate being, and he is responsible for Himself. He defines and takes responsibility for His personality by telling us what He thinks, feels, plans, allows, will not allow, likes, and dislikes. God’s world is set up with laws and principles. He designed them for our own good. Spiritual laws are as real as physical laws such as gravity, rotation of the earth, magnetic fields, etc. Just because we have not been taught these spiritual laws of life and relationships does not mean they will not rule. We need to know God’s laws, His ways, His instructions; then choose to operate according to them instead of against them.

 

The authors summed up the 10 Laws of Boundaries this way: “When God rescued his people from the Egyptians, He taught them His laws {and} his ways. These proved to be life to them. But, they had to learn them, practice them, and fight many battles to internalize these principles of faith. God has led us out of captivity also: whether out of a dysfunctional family, the world, our own religious self-righteousness. He has been our Redeemer. What He has secured for us needs to be possessed. The land he has brought us into has certain realities and these laws are found in His Word. Our responsibility is to learn them, practice them, appreciate them, experience the freedom they give us, and then love others the way God intends for us to.”

Thoughts on this from Yohm, Openly Curious, or anyone else?

God bless,
GE

[GoldenEagle]

The authors propose 10 Laws of Boundaries as found in the Bible. Here’s the first one:

 

Law #1 The Law of Sowing and Reaping

The law of cause and effect is a basic law of life.

 

The Bible calls it the Law of Sowing and Reaping.

 

When God tells us that we will reap what we sow, He is not punishing us; He’s telling us how things really work. Cause and effect.

 

In Galatians 6:7 – 8, what does Paul teach about sowing and reaping? (and KJV version here)

 

What about in 2 Corinthians 9:6-8? (and KJV version here)

 

1. How can you begin to develop healthy patterns of ‘sowing and reaping’?
2. Give some examples of unhealthy ‘sowing and reaping’.
3. When the law of sowing and reaping is interrupted or suspended, somebody sows and the wrong person reaps. How have you seen this illustrated, or experienced it in your life?

 

Thoughts from Yohm, Openly Curious, or anyone else?

 

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

13 hours ago, *Deidre* said:

Just because we are Christians, doesn't mean we can't read books outside of the Bible in order to glean particular insights into everyday living. 

Hiya Diedre! I agree. Some people don't feel that way or believe that though. While I believe that is unfortunate it is a valid opinion or perspective.

13 hours ago, *Deidre* said:

As to the OP, I think if we are discerning of who to have in our social circles, we will not have to be so strict on boundaries, because we will be surrounded by healthy people who don't want to harm us. I have only had to put boundaries in place, when I've dated ''bad'' guys, who after we broke up, couldn't take no for an answer, etc. It's usually people who don't respect others to begin with, who need to be reminded of boundaries. Most healthy, well adjusted people don't ''need'' boundaries and respect people without much to it. Just my experiences, anyways.

@*Deidre* I believe healthy boundaries are key to any relationship. They help us understand our feelings, attitudes, beliefs, behaviors, choices, values, and limits, talents, thoughts, desires, and to love each other better.

For example, children are to honor their parents for as seen in Ephesians 6:1-3. And yet the Bible also talks about parents (fathers) in Ephesians 6:4 not provoking their children to anger but to instruct them in the ways of the Lord.

Parents should set boundaries where they discipline out of love and not anger. This might mean counting to 10 or removing one's self from a situation for a short period of time before engaging in discipline. Those of us who believe should seek to instruct our children in following God and pointing them to Jesus. Children should honor their parents. Within reason this means kids seeking to obey their parents rules, listening to their advice, and learning from their parents.

A rebel child for example is someone who doesn't understand boundaries and doesn't understand the roll of parents in his or her life.

A poor parent who doesn't understand his or her roll might discipline children out of anger. The parent might not fulfill his or her God given roll of teaching children.

I do agree that those who don't respect others are typically the ones that need to be reminded of boundaries. Yet understanding that we are responsible for our feelings, thoughts, actions, and words is key. We cannot control the feelings, thoughts, actions, and words of others. I think even well adjusted people need boundaries.

For example, we have a friend who watches our kids and we watch theirs. We only allow our children to watch certain shows (our kids have very vivid imaginations so we want to limit scary shows) and try to limit their screen time to 30 min to an hour in the morning. We try to do the same thing in the afternoon. Our friends allow their children to have iPads and turn on the TV as they see fit. We will need to discuss this boundary that they need to understand for our children. It's not a huge deal but it is important to us.

We can't say what the boundaries are for our friends kids but we can certainly let others know our expectations for our kids. Does that make sense?

God bless,
GE

[GoldenEagle]

8 hours ago, Ezra said:

We can read all the books we want, but if we want God's insights, they will not correspond to man's. Check out these non-boundaries (Mt 5:39-42):

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

 

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ezra,

I think if we understand that no scripture is of stand alone interpretation, (2 Peter 1: 20) then we will look at all God says regarding the topic.

So for example if we just read, `Give to him that asketh thee, & from him would borrow of thee turn not away,`  & if we did that to all who came calling, what of looking after one`s own household? Seems a contradiction, until you realise that God has given us discernment. We are to be wise in not giving out to all & sundry, realising that one`s family is of priority.

Marilyn.

 

Hiya Ezra & Marilyn,

I think you bring up some good passages. I agree with Marilyn that we should look at the interpretation of Scripture in the greater context of the entire Bible. I also think that looking at context of the specific passage is important. The whole idea of looking at who, what, where, when, why, and how thing...

Her are some thoughts:

Re: Smite Thee

For example, smite the was used of blows with the hand or with a stick. For such blows fines from a shekel upwards were imposed by Jewish courts. Jesus was saying not to take people to court over this. When we are hurt or wronged our natural instinct is to retaliate or to accuse. This would likely surprise the attacking party. Jesus was saying don't do those things and stay out of petty legal proceedings. But also an opportunity to witness and show love to others who didn't deserve it. See John 13:34-35

Re: Coat and Cloak

The Jews wore two principal garments, an interior and an exterior. The interior, here called the "coat," or the tunic, was made commonly of linen, and encircled the whole body, extending down to the knees. The coat, or tunic, was extended to the neck and had long or short sleeves. Over this was commonly worn an upper garment, here called "cloke," or mantle in the KJV. It was made commonly nearly square, of different sizes, 5 or 6 cubits long and as many broad, and was wrapped around the body, and was thrown off when labor was performed. If, said Christ, an adversary wished to obtain, at law, one of these garments, rather than contend with him let him have the other also. This would likely surprise the accusing party. Again, Jesus is saying don't participate in petty legal proceedings. But also an opportunity to witness and show love to others who didn't deserve it. See John 13:34-35

Re: Whosoever compel thee to go a mile

As I understand it the word translated "shall compel" is of Persian origin. Post-offices are modern invention and system of communication. In order that the royal commands might be delivered with safety and dispatch in different parts of the empire, King Cyrus stationed horsemen at proper intervals on all the great public highways. One of those delivered the message to another. So intelligence was rapidly and safely communicated. These royal messengers were permitted to compel any person, boat, ship, owner of a horse, or other vehicle that they might need for the quick transmission of the king's commandments. Pretty good system right? The Romans thought so too and adopted it into their customs with the mile passuum.

Rather than resist a public authority requiring your attendance and aid for a certain distance go willingly twice the distance. A Roman mile was 1,000 paces. Jesus was saying to go 2,000 paces if a public authority required you assistance. This would surprise the public authority and might even provide opportunity for discussion as to why you were doing this. Again, this was legal advice.  But also an opportunity to witness and show love to others who didn't deserve it. See John 13:34-35

Re: Give and Borrow

God is generous and giving. He gave His Son's life for ours. He blesses people with mercy and stays his hand of wrath against them despite their sin. Jews were not allowed to charge interest to other Jews. See Exodus 22:25; Leviticus 25:37; Deuteronomy 23:19-20.  The higher law of Christ treats all men as brothers. As such we should give and lend freely expecting nothing in return. I don't believe Jesus would encourage laziness but to help our family's and those truly in need. (1 Timothy 5:8; 2 Thessalonians 3:10) If a widow, an orphan, a man of misfortune, or an infirmed man, lame, or sick, is at your door don't send any of them away empty handed. (See Matthew 25:35-45; Hebrews 13:2) This was social advice. This would show others that the followers of Jesus truly loved one another fulfilling the new command by Jesus. See John 13:34-35

The sermon on the mount was not an assertion of laws but of principles of life, witnessing, and loving others. Wouldn't you agree?

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Golden Eagle,

I have enjoyed reading your thread & the way you are interacting & helping us all work through this important issue. I have read the book & know it has given insight to different people I relate to. My first thought is -

`God must be first in our life....` Thus that is the boundary of all boundaries. Jesus exemplified that in His life & we are also commanded to do so. By the Holy Spirit we learn how that works out in our everyday life. And people, like those who wrote `Boundaries` flesh out God`s truths for us.

Also if everything we said & read had to be just Bible words, we would not be talking here on the forum.

regards, Marilyn. 

Hiya Marilyn!  

I totally agree that God must be first in our life. For the one who believes God should be in the driver's seat. Sometimes I forget that and try to take back control of my life. The Holy Spirit is in each of us. He is our guide and Helper.

This doesn't mean thought that we will all believe the exact same thing. We can still have unity though! Beautiful isn't it?

I wonder if you'd share how the book (or concept of boundaries) has helped or given insight with the people you relate to?

God bless,

GE