Guest shiloh357 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 1 minute ago, Denadii said: It makes me much more accountable to Father. You can go by the party line if you wish. First amendment and all. No, it just makes it easier to avoid having to deal with parts of the Bible that don't fit your claims. I didn't give you the party line. I showed that the Bible doesn't support your claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denadii Posted September 28, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 503 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 120 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/03/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/20/1948 Share Posted September 28, 2017 1 minute ago, shiloh357 said: Translation: "I can't refute the biblical evidence that God did some horrible things to people, so I will mask my inability to handle the truth, by laughing off the evidence." I won't refute that....Except for Ananias and Sapphira. It does not say God killed them. You are reading that in. Also the other instances....That was in a different dispensation. God is not visiting judgment on anybody until after the rapture, into the next dispensation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Just now, Denadii said: I won't refute that....Except for Ananias and Sapphira. It does not say God killed them. You are reading that in. Also the other instances....That was in a different dispensation. God is not visiting judgment on anybody until after the rapture, into the next dispensation. No, I am not. They lied to the Holy Spirit and died on the spot. God did it and there is no way around it. You said: " God does not inflict bad upon anybody." I gave you multiple examples that contradict that claim. Dispensations has nothing do with it and is total cop out. God inflicted all kinds of things upon His covenant people. But the truth is that God uses bad things. And in Paul's case, he used the thorn in the flesh for his purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted September 28, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 17 Topic Count: 347 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,445 Content Per Day: 2.70 Reputation: 5,363 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted September 28, 2017 5 hours ago, shiloh357 said: Paul's thorn in the flesh was given to him by God as direct result of him being taken up to the 3rd heaven. It was a means keeping Paul from being conceited on account of what He had seen. It was given to Paul at the beginning of his ministry, as we know the date the letter of II Corinthians was written and Paul said the vision was given 12 years prior to his writing that letter. Paul was given an amazing vision of Heaven because God knew what Paul would suffer for the sake of the Gospel. Paul would suffer more than any of the other apostles and God gave him that opportunity to see what was waiting ahead in heaven and this was a mercy given to Paul. The thorn was not a demon sent by Satan, but it was some kind of disability that kept Paul from being arrogant. It, evidently, was debilitating and Paul, an old man asked that it be removed. In his old age, the thorn was taking a greater toll on him than it did in his earlier years. But the Lord's response to Paul's request to remove it was that His grace was sufficient to sustain him and that God's power was made more evident in Pauls' life as a result of Paul's weakness. He kept Paul weak so that He would get all of the glory through Paul's life and ministry. That's a pretty good explanation and along the lines of my thinking. I don't know for certain, but I always though Paul's thorn in his side was his eye problems and vision. We clearly know if it was by his hand, his writing was very large, so he mostly used a scribe. The physician Luke treated his eyes probably for a long time as I understand it. I had "assumed" his eye problems were a direct and permanent result of seeing the glory of Christ on the Damascus Road, but that's only an assumption. Since Paul didn't know if he was in the body or spirit when he was "caught up", I would think that would eliminate the thorn was his eyes... That's in the top 500 of the 7.5 trillion questions I want to ask the Lord when I meet him. So all you folks out there who have questions they want to ask the Lord... You had best not be standing in line behind me 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted October 4, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 165 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 2,607 Days Won: 15 Joined: 04/29/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted October 4, 2017 Many scholars believed Paul's Thorn in Flesh was the Mediterranean Eye Disease he received when He saw Jesus (Acts 9). However, Paul says, "or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." (2 Corinthians 12:7), and ESV lends more light on why, "So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited." Concieted is proud, and it is written, "But He gives greater grace. Therefore He says: God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble," (James 4:6), "In the same way, you who are younger must accept the authority of the elders. And all of you, dress yourselves in humility as you relate to one another, for God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble. So humble yourselves under the mighty power of God, and at the right time he will lift you up in honor," (1 Peter 5:5-6), and "The LORD detests (considers an abomination) all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished." (Proverbs 16:5). I thus conclude that Christ allowed a messenger of Satan to torment Paul so that he didn't become proud, because becoming proud is far worse than a thorn in flesh. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denadii Posted October 7, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 503 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 120 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/03/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/20/1948 Share Posted October 7, 2017 On 9/2/2016 at 10:46 PM, WarriorforHim said: 2 Corinthians 12:7.. Paul speaks of a.. thorn in the flesh.. He calls it “a messenger of satan that had a purpose of torment. Many explanations have been put forward, but whether Paul is referring to a physical, spiritual, or emotional affliction.. or something else entirely.. Since he was not talking of a literal thorn, he must have been speaking metaphorically. Paul clues us in concerning the thorn’s purpose: To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations.” So, God’s goal in allowing the thorn in the flesh was to keep Paul humble. Anyone who had encountered Jesus and was commissioned personally by Him (Acts 9:2-8) would, in his natural state, become..puffed up. Add to that the fact that Paul was moved by the Holy Spirit to write much of the New Testament, and it is easy to see how Paul could become haughty. Paul also says that the affliction came from or by a “messenger of Satan.” Just as God allowed Satan to torment Job ( Job 1:1-12) God allowed Satan to torment Paul for God’s own good purpose. No one likes to live in pain. Paul sought the Lord three times to remove this source of pain from him (2 Cor. 12:8). He probably had many good reasons why he should be pain free.. he could have a more effective ministry; he could reach more people with the gospel; he could glorify God even more.. But the Lord was more concerned with building Paul’s character and preventing pride. Instead of removing the problem, whatever it was, God gave Paul more overwhelming grace and more compensating strength. Paul learned that God’s "power is made perfect in weakness” (verse 9). Here you guys go blaming God for that again. Where does it say Paul had to keep that thing? Where does it say God allowed or put that thing on him? Chuchy doctrine reads that in. You need to seek Gods wisdom for that. You might learn something new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the watchman Posted October 7, 2017 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 106 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 54 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/01/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted October 7, 2017 if i might say with out kicking the golden cow again... this is a really good post about paul thorn in the flesh.. which imo was all those who opposed his ministry .lets face it was not the most popular guy in the land.. he rocked the boat heavy from going to be chief prosecutor to preaching Jesus . either the thorn what ever it might be had its purpose 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. so we see what the Lord had to say about it his Grace (what a wonderful thing ) Paul accepted that grace . how many of us can say with our thorn we take pleasure in it. if you have never had a thorn you must not be in any type ministry . i have been pastor at churches i watched the flesh literally tear and break it down. that is hard to accept his grace is sufficient. but one thing for sure you learn and grow from it and become stronger that is my 2 cents { this is a very good post many good comments } some i agree with some i dont . but hey how boring it would be if every one was just like me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Denadii said: Here you guys go blaming God for that again. Where does it say Paul had to keep that thing? Where does it say God allowed or put that thing on him? Chuchy doctrine reads that in. You need to seek Gods wisdom for that. You might learn something new. Why would Satan want Paul to not be conceited? It was given to Paul so that he would not be conceited about the vision of Heaven he received. That's what the Bible says. Satan would not have interest in Paul being humble, as pride is a chief attribute of Satan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted October 7, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,990 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,688 Content Per Day: 11.83 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted October 7, 2017 " A messenger of Satan" that had the purpose of torment. He was not speaking of a literal thorn. The Bible is silent on the exact nature of Paul's thorn in the flesh. God doesn't want us to know or He would have revealed it in the Bible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angels4u Posted October 7, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 56 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,763 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 12,161 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Share Posted October 7, 2017 13 minutes ago, missmuffet said: " A messenger of Satan" that had the purpose of torment. He was not speaking of a literal thorn. The Bible is silent on the exact nature of Paul's thorn in the flesh. God doesn't want us to know or He would have revealed it in the Bible They expect that Paul could have had an eye problem ,the reason of the thorn in the flesh was to keep him humble so he would not be boastful . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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