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Making the two into one.


Retrobyter

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Shalom, all.

We need is to merge the Body of Christ and the children of Israel into one. The "Body of Christ" is the "Body of the JEWISH Messiah." We become "Jews" in the sense that we have been "circumcised" in the heart!

Romans 2:23-29
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
KJV

And, this leads me to...

Ephesians 2:1-22
1 And you (the Gentile Ephesians) hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation (lifestyle) in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ (the Messiah), (by grace ye are saved;)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`):
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus (the Messiah Yeshua`).
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`) unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ (outside the Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`) ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ (the Messiah).
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached (announced good news of) peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both (children of Israel and Gentiles) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye (the Ephesian Gentiles) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the ones cleaned and set apart), and of the household (Greek: oikeioi = "those-of-His-own-house" = Hebrew: mishpachah = EXTENDED FAMILY) of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation (the bedrock) of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone (the capstone);
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

Thus, the goal is not to make Jews a part of the "Church" (as some think should happen); rather, the goal is to make Gentiles part of the COMMONWEALTH, the CITIZENSHIP, of Israel! The TWO ("TWAIN")  become ONE in the Jewish Messiah, Yeshua`!

And, just to clarify and answer a question before it is formed, John tells us:

1 John 3:19-24
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandmentThat we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah), and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
KJV

So, "keeping His commandments" is not just living up to God's Torah! It's believing on the authority of His Son Yeshua` the Messiah, which IS "loving God with all ones heart, soul, mind, and strength," and loving one another!

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Shalom, Ezra.

You had commented on the above in Marilyn's thread on the parables of Matthew 13 as such:

Quote

Christ is now far more than Jewish Messiah.  He is now the Lord Jesus Christ -- King of kings and Lord of Lords and Savior of the world.  The Jews blew it.

My first question is this: Just what do you think "Christ" means anyway? Do you really think "Christ" means more than the "Jewish Messiah?"

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34 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Ezra.

You had commented on the above in Marilyn's thread on the parables of Matthew 13 as such:

My first question is this: Just what do you think "Christ" means anyway? Do you really think "Christ" means more than the "Jewish Messiah?"

Christ is from the Greek Christos which is the equivalent of the Hebrew Mashiach (translated as Messiah), which means "the Anointed One". 

The point that Christians should note is that after His resurrection, Jesus of Nazareth is not merely the Christ, but "the Lord Jesus Christ".  That is a very important distinction which was brought to the attention of the Jews by Peter at Pentecost (no doubt under the direction of the Holy Spirit). Please note (Acts 2:36):

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Because of this important distinction, Paul's epistles always speak of grace and peace coming to Christians from God the Father and "the Lord Jesus Christ".  That is also why Paul said in Acts 16:31: And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

That is also why we  read in Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [please note the connection to the resurrection].

Until His triumphal entry into Jerusalem, Jesus was truly the Jewish Messiah.  But the same crowd which hailed Him at that time condemned Him to death a few days later. Thus Christ became the Lamb of God on the Cross, and after His resurrection He was worshiped by the apostles, and Thomas said to Him "My Lord and my God".

Consequently, He is no longer merely the Jewish Messiah, but "the Lord Jesus Christ", and therefore Scripture speaks of the Body of Christ in the context of His lordship -- He is the Head of that Body as Lord and God.  He is also now the Savior of the world, since Israel (by and large) rejected Him.

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13 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Christ is from the Greek Christos which is the equivalent of the Hebrew Mashiach (translated as Messiah), which means "the Anointed One". 

The point that Christians should note is that after His resurrection, Jesus of Nazareth is not merely the Christ, but "the Lord Jesus Christ".  That is a very important distinction which was brought to the attention of the Jews by Peter at Pentecost (no doubt under the direction of the Holy Spirit). Please note (Acts 2:36):

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Because of this important distinction, Paul's epistles always speak of grace and peace coming to Christians from God the Father and "the Lord Jesus Christ".  That is also why Paul said in Acts 16:31: And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

That is also why we  read in Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [please note the connection to the resurrection].

Until His triumphal entry into Jerusalem, Jesus was truly the Jewish Messiah.  But the same crowd which hailed Him at that time condemned Him to death a few days later. Thus Christ became the Lamb of God on the Cross, and after His resurrection He was worshiped by the apostles, and Thomas said to Him "My Lord and my God".

Consequently, He is no longer merely the Jewish Messiah, but "the Lord Jesus Christ", and therefore Scripture speaks of the Body of Christ in the context of His lordship -- He is the Head of that Body as Lord and God.  He is also now the Savior of the world, since Israel (by and large) rejected Him.

Shalom, Ezra.

So, what do you think the word "worship" means?

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3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, all.

We need is to merge the Body of Christ and the children of Israel into one. The "Body of Christ" is the "Body of the JEWISH Messiah." We become "Jews" in the sense that we have been "circumcised" in the heart!

Romans 2:23-29
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
KJV

 

Hi Retrobyter,

You are a gentleman for starting this topic here. Thank you. Now to your first scripture - Romans 2: 23 - 29.

First we need to place it in context of the book of Romans. As we know Romans is occupied with the good news, described as being -

`...the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first & also for the Greek, (Gentiles).` (Rom. 1: 16)

It presents a courtroom scene. God, Judge of all the earth, summons Jew & Gentile before the bar of justice. The general charge is stated `All under sin.` (Rom. 3: 19) Both the Gentile (2: 1 - 16) & Jew (2: 17 -  3: 8) are given the opportunity for a hearing. There special pleas of `not guilty,` are carefully considered & answered, clearing away for the final verdict from the Judge.

Finally the Judge pronounces the verdict. `All the world... guilty before God.` (3: 19)

Thus we see that when God is referring to the `Jew` He is talking to the people of Israel.

Marilyn.

 

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12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Ezra.

So, what do you think the word "worship" means?

Worship means giving honor, glory, adoration and praise to the Lord God Almighty -- who is also the triune Godhead -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You will note that there are many conservative Christian hymns which include all three Divine Persons.  "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty" includes the words "Blessed Trinity".  How is that possible? Well that is the Mystery of God.

When doubting Thomas worshiped Christ, he recognized Him as both Lord and God. That was a 180 degree turn from the previous week, based upon his personal encounter with the Risen Christ and His wounds.

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5 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Worship means giving honor, glory, adoration and praise to the Lord God Almighty -- who is also the triune Godhead -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You will note that there are many conservative Christian hymns which include all three Divine Persons.  "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty" includes the words "Blessed Trinity".  How is that possible? Well that is the Mystery of God.

When doubting Thomas worshiped Christ, he recognized Him as both Lord and God. That was a 180 degree turn from the previous week, based upon his personal encounter with the Risen Christ and His wounds.

Shalom, Ezra.

The reason why I asked about "worship" is because you had said, "...after His resurrection He was worshiped by the apostles...." So, I wanted your definition. You've given quite an elaborate definition, and the more detailed the definition of a word, the less flexibility it has within a context that uses that word. And, the opposite is also true: the more general the definition, the more flexibility it has within a context.

Let's see the Greek for the word "worship": First, let's make sure that we're in the context to which you were referring.

Matthew 28:5-10, 16-17
5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.
8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying,
All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
10 Then said Jesus unto them,
Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
...
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
KJV

Luke 24:33-53
33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,
Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them,
Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,
Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
44 And he said unto them,
These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them,
Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
KJV

In all three of these cases in both Gospels, the words are a form of ...

NT:4352 proskuneoo (pros-koo-neh'-o); from NT:4314 (pros) and a probable derivative of NT:2965 (kuon) (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):
KJV - worship.

NT:4314 pros (pros); a strengthened form of NT:4253; a preposition of direction; forward to, i.e. toward (with the genitive case the side of, i.e. pertaining to; with the dative case by the side of, i.e. near to; usually with the accusative case the place, time, occasion, or respect, which is the destination of the relation, i.e. whither or for which it is predicated):
KJV - about, according to against, among, at, because of, before, between, ([where-]) by, for,  at thy house, in, for intent, nigh unto, of, which pertain to, that, to (the end that),  together, to ([you]) -ward, unto, with (-in). In comparison it denotes essentially the same applications, namely, motion towards, accession to, or nearness at.

NT:2965 kuon (koo'-ohn); a primary word; a dog ["hound"] (literally or figuratively):
KJV - dog.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

THAT'S what the word "worship" means. It means "to fawn or crouch to or to prostrate oneself in homage." It's the SAME WORD that was used in two other occasions:

Matthew 2:1-2, 7-8
1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
...
7 Then Herod, when he had privily (secretly) called the wise men, inquired of them diligently (carefully) what time the star appeared.
8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
KJV

Mark 15:15-20
15 And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified.
16 And the soldiers led him away into the hall, called Praetorium; and they call together the whole band.
17 And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head,
18 And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews!
19 And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him.
20 And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him.
KJV

Therefore, the word "worship" simply means to bow before someone and be prostrate or be prone, stretched out on the ground with one's face to the ground at one's feet. Now, that MAY imply all the rest of what you said it means, namely "giving honor, glory, adoration and praise to the Lord God Almighty -- who is also the triune Godhead -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit", but as you can see in the two examples above, it doesn't have to mean that.

By keeping the definition simple, we've opened up the word to greater application in the other Scripture passages in which it was used.

E.G., 

Acts 10:25-26
25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
KJV

Hebrews 11:21
21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
KJV

Revelation 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV

Revelation 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
KJV

So, when the Scriptures said that they worshipped the Master Yeshua` the Messiah, it MAY NOT have meant all that you think it meant! It may have only meant that they BOWED BEFORE HIS FEET!

The same is true in the future when ...

Romans 14:10-12
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ (the Messiah).
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

KJV

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