sabbath day

[Remnantrob]

Thanks Giller,

Before I respond to your most recent post I just wanted to ask Shiloh if he agreed with your study.

[Remnantrob]

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No, not at all.   It is as much a blessing to them as going to church on Sunday is a blessing to me.

I only asked the question because that's what it seemed like you were referring to when you stated:

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 It's not a case of slavish obedience, as if we are there to appease God.   God doesn't need to be appeased.  Worship is God's gift to us that we offer back up to Him.

Just one more question for this point that you already answered.

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The Sabbath day  was for Israel.  The true Sabbath is Jesus and is for everyone. 

How do you interpret Mark 2:27,28 in light of the previous statement that the Sabbath day was for Israel?

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²⁷ And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

²⁸ Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

 

Thanks.

[Guest shiloh357]

14 hours ago, Remnantrob said:

How do you interpret Mark 2:27,28 in light of the previous statement that the Sabbath day was for Israel?

Thanks.

I interpret it  in the light of the context in which those verses appear.   Using this as a prooftext to make the case that the Sabbath is a requirement for all humanity really doesn't fit the point that Jesus is making.  They were not arguing over whether or not the Sabbath was for all of humanity and who was required to observe it.  That is not even on the radar.  

Jesus isn't defending Sabbath observance.   He and his disciples were accused of violating the Sabbath.   Jesus didn't correct his accusers in the substance of their accusation; He defended their violation of the Sabbath Day regulations.   He did not defend Himself by arguing that picking off the grains of wheat was not a Sabbath violation.   Rather, Jesus' response was point out the fact that David took the shew bread that was unlawful for him to have, much less eat back in I Sam. 21.

What is important in that passage (vv. 23-28)  is that Jesus is calling Himself  "The Son of Man,"  which is a Messianic title drawn from Daniel 7:13-14.  It is the 2nd in Mark that Jesus has referred to himself by that title.    And what's more is that He is claiming Lordship over the Sabbath, which would have been rather incendiary to his opponents.

Jesus' point was that the Sabbath was meant to be a day of blessing and that Sabbath observance was not to become a burden.   Jesus made this case numerous times.   It's why Jesus violated the Sabbath numerous times by healing and doing good on the Sabbath ,and His violations of the Sabbath actually brought the joy and peace that were supposed to be the features of the Sabbath day.  

The Sabbath serves man; man does not serve the Sabbath.  Jesus shows this in Mark 3 and the man whom Jesus healed on the Sabbath from a withered arm. It is lawful to violate the Sabbath Day rest to do good to others.

Jesus was proclaiming Himself to be Lord of the Sabbath, He was proclaiming himself to be greater than the Sabbath, thus greater than Moses and this was a declaration that was tantamount to Him establishing His deity, as only God can really be Lord of the Sabbath.

[brakelite]

On 28/10/2016 at 7:19 PM, shiloh357 said:

I interpret it  in the light of the context in which those verses appear.   Using this as a prooftext to make the case that the Sabbath is a requirement for all humanity really doesn't fit the point that Jesus is making.  They were not arguing over whether or not the Sabbath was for all of humanity and who was required to observe it.  That is not even on the radar.  

Jesus isn't defending Sabbath observance.   He and his disciples were accused of violating the Sabbath.   Jesus didn't correct his accusers in the substance of their accusation; He defended their violation of the Sabbath Day regulations.   He did not defend Himself by arguing that picking off the grains of wheat was not a Sabbath violation.   Rather, Jesus' response was point out the fact that David took the shew bread that was unlawful for him to have, much less eat back in I Sam. 21.

What is important in that passage (vv. 23-28)  is that Jesus is calling Himself  "The Son of Man,"  which is a Messianic title drawn from Daniel 7:13-14.  It is the 2nd in Mark that Jesus has referred to himself by that title.    And what's more is that He is claiming Lordship over the Sabbath, which would have been rather incendiary to his opponents.

Jesus' point was that the Sabbath was meant to be a day of blessing and that Sabbath observance was not to become a burden.   Jesus made this case numerous times.   It's why Jesus violated the Sabbath numerous times by healing and doing good on the Sabbath ,and His violations of the Sabbath actually brought the joy and peace that were supposed to be the features of the Sabbath day.  

The Sabbath serves man; man does not serve the Sabbath.  Jesus shows this in Mark 3 and the man whom Jesus healed on the Sabbath from a withered arm. It is lawful to violate the Sabbath Day rest to do good to others.

Jesus was proclaiming Himself to be Lord of the Sabbath, He was proclaiming himself to be greater than the Sabbath, thus greater than Moses and this was a declaration that was tantamount to Him establishing His deity, as only God can really be Lord of the Sabbath.

Shiloh, to suggest Jesus broke the Sabbath is tantamount to claiming he sinned. He broke the Sabbath free from the false restrictions placed upon it by the Jewish ruling council, but He did not break the 4th commandment in any way, shape, or form. By healing on the Sabbath, what He was demonstrating was that it was fully in the parameters of Sabbath keeping to do good on that day. Pulling your sheep out of a ditch is another example, which even the Pharisees would have done as Jesus suggested. Allowing his disciples to 'harvest' corn and eat it, was also within the parameters of the law, just as David's eating of the showbread was also lawful. Why? Because there are "weightier matters of the law" than the nit-picking legalistic legal yokes that the rulers were so keen to burden the people with. And what are those "weightier matters"? Judgment, mercy, and faith...John 23:23. Your argument can in no wise be used as a defense of not observing the Sabbath commandment. Judgment, mercy and faith, which Jesus says are a part of the law in that text, while outweighing the legalistic demands of the Pharisees, did not annul Sabbath observance altogether.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath because it was He that instituted at the beginning. Therefore only He can annul or change it. And He didn't.

[Guest shiloh357]

8 minutes ago, brakelite said:

Shiloh, to suggest Jesus broke the Sabbath is tantamount to claiming he sinned. He broke the Sabbath free from the false restrictions placed upon it by the Jewish ruling council, but He did not break the 4th commandment in any way, shape, or form. By healing on the Sabbath, what He was demonstrating was that it was fully in the parameters of Sabbath keeping to do good on that day.

It is not saying that Jesus sinned. When Jesus was accused of that violation, he did not respond by saying that he only broke the religious council's rules.  He did not tell them they were incorrect.   His defense was to point out the unlawful action of David yet David is not accounted to have sinned.   He is not condemned  in scripture for what he did.    Jesus violated the Sabbath, but it was not a sin in that self-preservation took precedence.

The Sabbath laws in the Bible say you cannot carry a burden on the Sabbath, but no one would be faulted for going to the store and buying food for a family need and carrying to their home on the Sabbath.  It is a violation, but not a sin.

[brakelite]

20 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

It is not saying that Jesus sinned. When Jesus was accused of that violation, he did not respond by saying that he only broke the religious council's rules.  He did not tell them they were incorrect.   His defense was to point out the unlawful action of David yet David is not accounted to have sinned.   He is not condemned  in scripture for what he did.    Jesus violated the Sabbath, but it was not a sin in that self-preservation took precedence.

The Sabbath laws in the Bible say you cannot carry a burden on the Sabbath, but no one would be faulted for going to the store and buying food for a family need and carrying to their home on the Sabbath.  It is a violation, but not a sin.

No Shiloh, Jesus did not violate the Sabbath. He said Himself, it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath. Jesus said of David's incident, “Have ye not read in the law, how that on the Sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? " So as far as the disciples are concerned, yes, they profaned the Sabbath, by reaping and threshing. In the words of a writer I greatly admire but who shall remain nameless...

If it was right for David to satisfy his hunger by eating of the bread that had been set apart to a holy use, then it was right for the disciples to supply their need by plucking the grain upon the sacred hours of the Sabbath. Again, the priests in the temple performed greater labor on the Sabbath than upon other days. The same labor in secular business would be sinful; but the work of the priests was in the service of God. They were performing those rites that pointed to the redeeming power of Christ, and their labor was in harmony with the object of the Sabbath. But now Christ Himself had come. The disciples, in doing the work of Christ, were engaged in God's service, and that which was necessary for the accomplishment of this work it was right to do on the Sabbath day.

Many Sabbath-keeping Pastors 'work' harder on Sabbath than on other days, just as Sunday Pastors likely also do on that day. Yet who would charge them with profaning either day? Only a Pharisee. And to use the disciples action as evidence or support of ignoring the Sabbath altogether  as some do makes no sense. Just as some saying in defense of keeping Sunday, or any day, or no day at all, because "Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath". I see that often. My response is yes, He is. So? What does that mean? Does it not mean that He is the Lord of the Sabbath??? That being the case, what right, what arrogance, what authority does the church have to change a day He instituted at creation and for which there is no evidence anywhere in scripture that the only person with that rightful authority to change the day or the commandment actually used that authority to do so?

 

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, brakelite said:

No Shiloh, Jesus did not violate the Sabbath. He said Himself, it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath. Jesus said of David's incident, “Have ye not read in the law, how that on the Sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? " So as far as the disciples are concerned, yes, they profaned the Sabbath, by reaping and threshing. In the words of a writer I greatly admire but who shall remain nameless...

 

which is what I said.  There are violations of the Sabbath in which a person is held innocent/blameless because they were doing good, hence my example of carrying a burden which is forbidden on the Sabbath, but is permitted if it is doing good for someone else.

[Guest shiloh357]

4 minutes ago, Abdicate said:

In the Greek, it's 100%, Sabbath, which is the last day of the week. Even in the West, the first day of the week is Sunday, so the last day of the week is Saturday. It's, according to the word of God, when Jesus rose from the dead, on the Sabbath. 

Jesus rose on the first day of the week.

[coheir]

Exo was to the Jew Not any Gentile.

Eph 2

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

in v 20 it show we as Christians are not built upon the Old Covenant but on Christ and his Apostles.

[brakelite]

8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

which is what I said.  There are violations of the Sabbath in which a person is held innocent/blameless because they were doing good, hence my example of carrying a burden which is forbidden on the Sabbath, but is permitted if it is doing good for someone else.

Can I try and make myself a little clearer. When I said the disciples had profaned the Sabbath by their eating of the corn as they passed through the fields, which was perfectly lawful to do on any other day, I meant that it was profaned only in the sense of the misguided or warped view of man. If they had been doing so in order to sell the product for personal gain, thus partaking of their normal secular labor, then indeed, they would have been 'breaking' the law as regards Sabbath keeping.  However, for several reasons this occasion did not profane or 'break' the commandment regards Sabbath keeping in God's eyes. First, as Jesus explained, they were working in the service of God, just as the priests would do so in their service in the temple on the Sabbath.  This more than exonerates, or gives an excuse for God to "overlook" an offense. Their service to God on the Sabbath completely outweighed any law regarding Sabbath keeping. As Jesus said, it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath days. The other reason it was right that they could do this, was because love and mercy and judgment were weightier matters of the law. It is God's plan for His people to love mercy, do justly, and walk humbly with Him.

To get back to the original question, which day is Sabbath? It is the day Jesus made holy at creation....it is the day He sanctified...it is the day He rested on...it is the first full day in which He spent time with His special new creation, man and woman...it is the day He reminded Israel of to remember that they may be blessed...it is the day Jesus observed throughout His life correcting the mistakes and undoing the heavy burdens that had been placed upon it since Israel's sojourn in Babylon...it is the day the apostles observed throughout their lifetime...it is the day Paul observed teaching both Jews and Gentiles...it is the 7th day ...it is the day that the Roman church decided to trample on by persecuting those who observed it and upholding Sunday, the first day which was first instituted by the Roman emperor but confirmed by the clergy to replace Sabbath with a spurious, false and counterfeit "Lord's Day".