Truth Seeker Posted November 22, 2016 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 34 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 41 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/17/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2016 Yes I did read that but I don't see how the Law that Paul is referring to is the law of Moses and when John refers to "lawlessness" that means the ten commandments. Never the less... If Paul is writing about the law of Moses why then In Acts 21:18-24 is Paul working to prove that he is NOT teaching against the law and why does he say in Acts 24:14 that he believes all that is written in the Torah and Prophets? It seems to me that either Paul was NOT referring to the Torah or he was a great hypocrite. Also as for the oral Torah, if you look up a video called The Hebrew Yeshuah versus the Greek Jesus by Nehemiah Gordon , the son of a Rabbi you will find that the Rabbi's did and still do consider their word supreme even over the written law. He also shows how many try to use Matthew chapter 15:1-20 as an example of Jesus doing away with the law of Moses but the hand washing in question is not from the law of Moses rather it is from the oral law of the Rabbi's. You said" In brief, anything and everything which is contrary to the character of God is sin. " Wouldn't that be what the Law of Moses was pointing out, the character of God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted November 22, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.36 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2016 33 minutes ago, inchrist said: And its not a NEW covenant, its a RENEWED covenant. Beware of those who BLATANTLY contradict Scripture (as above). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestormx Posted November 22, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,113 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 442 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/06/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/17/1975 Share Posted November 22, 2016 38 minutes ago, inchrist said: And its not a NEW covenant, its a RENEWED covenant. 2 Just out of pure curiosity let me ask. I thought the Old covenant was between God and Israel and the New covenant was between God the Father and Jesus Christ. How can it be the same covenant renewed when it involves different people? Old covenant = To get to God, must go through Israel and the Law of Moses. New covenant = TO get to God the father, must go through Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestormx Posted November 22, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,113 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 442 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/06/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/17/1975 Share Posted November 22, 2016 (edited) 13 minutes ago, inchrist said: Thats assuming there is such a thing as Law of Moses versus Law of Christ. Are they not the same? Irrelevant if the covenants are between completely different people. PS. You didn't answer my question : How can it be the same covenant renewed when it involves different people? Edited November 22, 2016 by firestormx clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth Seeker Posted November 22, 2016 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 34 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 41 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/17/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2016 Brothers and Sisters, here is my view. I am almost 60 years old. In my lifetime I have witnessed Christianity in America change and not for the better. The unbelievers in America have seen it too and they see no reason to be a Christian. Back about five decades ago Christianity used to have a standard of living that you were expected to live by if you were a Christian. The standards varied from church to church but still there was a standard and the world knew it and for the most part respected Christians. Then I began to notice a change. Churches started to throw out the Old Testament and started advertising that they were a New Testament church. Next the focus became more and more on grace and if you mentioned any kind of standards to live by you were shouted down as being legalistic. Then they started shouting, you can't judge me! (which is un-Biblical see 1Corinthians 5:12) We have now come to the place where there are almost no standards for Christians. There is almost no difference between a believer and an unbeliever. Christianity in America is dying because we have no firm foundation anymore. We as Christians must get back to some standards. I understand that we are not going to agree on them all, there are still going to be variations from church to church but we are called to be a separate people and that is what we need to do is separate ourselves from the world. We need to be un-apologetically different but the kind of different that someone else would look at and respect. The Bible says that God does not change. God did not decide one day that the laws were not working so He would just throw them out and replace them with something vague that leaves everyone to decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong and I believe that deep down in their hearts most Christians know this but we have been too busy trying to use scripture to justify our actions instead of using scripture to change our actions. What happened to Holiness, Righteousness and Godliness? I am not disagreeing with grace. It is for sure that we are saved by grace because we all sinned, but catch that, we have all sinned as in past tense! We should not continue to sin, 1 John 5:18. We cannot use grace as a license to sin, Jude 1:4. This has been a long hard discussion. If we Christians can't figure it out how do we expect the world to grasp it? They can't and they don't and that is why Christianity is dying. We must get it figured out and come to agreement on it and we must do it fast! There are many souls depending on it! God Bless! P.S. I take God's word very seriously and I can get excited about it in a good way and in a bad way so let me say that if I have said anything that sounded harsh or unloving please forgive me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 On 11/21/2016 at 10:25 AM, Truth Seeker said: That is pretty broad. So how would you answer the old atheist argument about having sex with your married neighbor? That's not being unloving. Well actually it is being unloving. It's hurting a marriage; building bonds that aren't meant to last; gratifying the flesh for the sake of expedience and a whole host of other psychological betrayals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted November 22, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2016 I have not read the entire thread so please forgive me if this is a repeat. Having grown up in a home which observed the Mosaic law, I am well familiar with law keeping. My family was not Christian and we knew almost nothing about Jesus but we were serious law keepers. (For those who do not know, the so called 10 commandments are part of the Mosaic law given at Mt. Sinai). No where in the 'old testament'/Tenach, is eternal salvation promised. Eternal salvation only comes by grace through faith in Jesus. Knowing many many people who also observed the Law, I came to realize that some new they were not perfect law keepers. Others (most) were proud of the law that they kept while ignoring their failures and just assuming the merciful God would forgive them. The more devout they were at keeping the law, the prouder they were thinking God was impressed at their effort and that they were more righteous then most. When I became a Christian, I invited some over to my house for a High Holy day, and was questioned about keeping the law. Yet, I observed that in many ways the Church had more laws with the same result. Those who followed the Christian laws were proud of their obedience and living like a Christian should. They looked down on those who even admitted struggles with what was considered sin (some was sin but other Christian laws were more traditions). So, is Christianity and the Christian life doing things to appear holy or is there something else. And what is the difference between those who observe biblical laws and Christians? The bible says when we are born again, the law is written on our hearts. That happens when believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 8:10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, And I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, And they shall be My people. Romans 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. Gal 5:22-23But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Note: Self-control is a fruit of the Spirit, and not something we do to control ourselves. It is a fruit which the Holy Spirit teaches or grows as Christians mature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted November 22, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2016 15 hours ago, Ezra said: Beware of those who BLATANTLY contradict Scripture (as above). Agreed. Someone who does not know Hebrew did a very bad interpretation ignoring Hebrew grammar to promoted the wrong statement that the New Covenant/Testament is not really new but is renewed. The totally confused two different words. But use their misinterpretation to try to bring the Mosaic law into the New Covenant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth Seeker Posted November 23, 2016 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 34 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 41 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/17/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted November 23, 2016 Oh Boy! Here we go again! I give up! I became a Christian 43 years ago. I no longer know what Christianity is anymore. The best I can tell is that if you say that you believe in Jesus you are going to heaven. There are no hard and fast rules to live by, just be loving, however ambiguous that may be. If that is what Christianity means now then count me out. I don't believe it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warrior12 Posted November 23, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 53 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,411 Content Per Day: 0.88 Reputation: 1,508 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/05/2016 Status: Online Share Posted November 23, 2016 (edited) Romans 10: 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the [a]end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is [b]based on law shall live [c]by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness [d]based on faith speaks as follows: Geneva Study Bible {3} For Christ is the {c} end of the law for righteousness to {d} every one that believeth. (3) The proof: the law itself points to Christ, that those who believe in him should be saved. Therefore the calling to salvation by the works of the law, is vain and foolish: but Christ is offered for salvation to every believer. (c) The end of the law is to justify those that keep the law: but seeing that we do not observe the law through the fault of our flesh, we do not attain this end: but Christ heals this disease, for he fulfils the law for us. (d) Not only to the Jews, but also to the Gentiles. Edited November 23, 2016 by warrior12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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