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Under the law


Remnantrob

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1 hour ago, Truth Seeker said:

Oh Boy! Here we go again!

I give up!

I became a Christian 43 years ago. I no longer know what Christianity is anymore. The best I can tell is that if you say that you believe in Jesus you are going to heaven. There are no hard and fast rules to live by, just be loving, however ambiguous that may be.

If that is what Christianity means now then count me out. I don't believe it!

Okay, let's take this one at a time then:

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 5:18-20, NASB, emphasis mine)

The Law was given for the explicit purpose of making sin increase; that is, to cause sin to expose itself and become apparent. Man is born basically blind to his sinfulness, and because of this, the law's purpose is to make that sin become exposed and very apparent. The harder we try to keep God's law, the more the sin nature rebels, until we discover that we cannot keep it at all:

" But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise." (Galatians 3:23-29, NASB, emphasis mine)

In that role, it indeed serves as a "tutor", showing us that we cannot please god and keep the law, and that we need a Savior to deliver us and free us from the verdict that the Law gives for Sin: death. under the Old Covenant, the death of an animal was necessary to temporarily cover sin. In the New Covenant (made between God the father and God the Son, Jesus Christ), Jesus has become the sacrifice for our sins, and His sacrifice is once-for-all and permanent.

Now, as for "believing in Jesus", trusting in the Lord is not mere mental assent that He is the Savior; Scripture tells us:

"But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." (James 2:18-26, NASB, emphasis mine)

Simply thinking Jesus is the savior is not believing in Him; trusting in Jesus that He is your Savior is what Scripture is talking about here. And that trust in Him means being willing to turn from your sin (repentance), as Jesus spoke of in Scripture:

"Now when Jesus heard that John had been taken into custody, He withdrew into Galilee; and leaving Nazareth, He came and settled in Capernaum, which is by the sea, in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali. 14This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: “THE LAND OF ZEBULUN AND THE LAND OF NAPHTALI,  BY THE WAY OF THE SEA, BEYOND THE JORDAN, GALILEE OF THE GENTILES— “THE PEOPLE WHO WERE SITTING IN DARKNESS SAW A GREAT LIGHT, AND THOSE WHO WERE SITTING IN THE LAND AND SHADOW OF DEATH, UPON THEM A LIGHT DAWNED.” From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.(Mathew 4:12-17, NASB, emphasis mine)

Now, faith alone in Jesus Christ is what is required to be saved. But that faith will produce fruit of works; James declares in Scripture that if you have faith but not works, that faith is dead. Contrary to what many believe, Paul reinforces that in Ephesians:

" For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." (Ephesians 2: 8-10, NASB, emphasis mine)

Faith (trust in the Lord) is what is required, but once we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, the changed heart will do things more in line with the new life we have, and the fruit of the spirit will manifest in our deeds (works). Works do not save us, but are an evidence of our Salvation.

 

What the problem here is that "living by rules" is not something we do to be saved; rather, it is because we are saved, we can now live according to God's ways, because His ways will be in our hearts and will manifest from the inside-out. And that is the heart of the Law, as seen in this passage:

" “In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets. (Matthew7:12, NASB, emphasis mine)

And in this one:

"But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ “This is the great and foremost commandment. “The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.(Matthew 22:35-40, NASB, emphasis mine)

With that, it answers the "old atheist argument about having sex with your married neighbor": it is not a loving thing, seeing that they would not want someone having sex with their wife. "Loving your neighbor" means caring for their greatest good, not engaging in sexual activity.

Lastly: we do not define Christianity by what people say, but by what Scripture says. We read Scripture, pray and ask the Lord for guidance on it through the Holy Spirit. It is not a set of rules that we try to keep by our own initiative or in our own strength, but instead it is a transformation  of our hearts from seeking only our wants, to recognizing that God is the standard of all that is good in the universe, and we have fallen short of that standard.  In that, we recognize through the Law that we are indeed incapable of meeting that standard of goodness, and Jesus Christ is our only hope for Salvation. When we trust in  Him as our Savior, and not just believe that he is the Savior, our heart is transformed by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit and we are now able to live for God, as the Law is now written within us and we are a new creation in Christ. We see what is wrong with sin, and strive against it  and strive towards God.

None of us will ever be completely without sin in this life, but we are not looking for opportunities to commit it; instead, we are seeking to be free of it.

I hope this is of some help to you, Truth Seeker. meantime, I will keep you and your family in my prayers.

 

YBIC,

 

-Robert

 

 

Edited by Robert
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6 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

Agreed.

Someone who does not know Hebrew did a very bad interpretation ignoring Hebrew grammar to promoted the wrong statement that the New Covenant/Testament is not really new but is renewed. The totally confused two different words. But use their misinterpretation to try to bring the Mosaic law into the New Covenant.

Thanks, Qnts2.  Haven't seen you around for a while. Hibernation or vacation? :laugh:

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22 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Thanks, Qnts2.  Haven't seen you around for a while. Hibernation or vacation? :laugh:

I am still working on cleaning out the house. We are selling it in about 2 weeks.

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22 hours ago, inchrist said:

Wheres the contradiction?

Both the Hebrew chadash (Jer. 31:31) and the Greekkainos (Heb. 8:8) words for "new" may be more properly translated "renewed" as opposed to "new" or "brand-new" in certain contexts.

Chadash may mean new in quality, not new in time (1 Sam. 11:14; 2 Chron. 15:8; 24:4, 12; Job 10:7; Psa. 103:5; 104:30; Isa. 61:4; Lam. 5:21). It can mean to renew or repair. For instance, in Psalm 51:10 David says, "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." David uses the same word as in Jeremiah 31:31 (chadash). David was not asking for something brand-new, but was asking for a renewal of what he had previously. In 2 Chronicles 24:4,12 we see the use of the terms repair and restore (root, chadash) with the already existent house of the Lord. So in all these verses, there is a renewal, a repairing, a restoring of that which was already in existence. The same is true for Jeremiah 31.

In the New Testament, of the eight times that "new" is applied to the New Covenant, seven of them use the term kainos - renewed, or new in quality, not necessarily time (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25; 2 Cor. 3:6; Heb. 8:13; 9:15) as opposed toneos (meaning new in time - Heb. 12:24). The use of term kainos means there was a preexisting covenant to which Jesus gave a qualitative difference.

The error is in grammar.

In Jeremiah 31:31, the word is Chadashah. Chadashah is the feminine form reflecting the word Brit which is feminine. Chadashah is an adjective which means new, never renewed.

In Psalm 51:10, the word is Chadesh which is a verb. The word is a verb and means renewed.

Since Jeremiah 31:31 is an adjective and not a verb, the same is not true. They are two different works. It is improper to translate the adjective as renewed and no knowledgable Hebrew scholar would ever translate Chadashah as renewed. Chadashah can not be renew or repair as chadashah is not a verb.

Another point. Adjectives do not have roots. Verbs have roots so when you refer to the root, you are referring to a verb. Hebrew verbs have many grammatical forms which follow certain conventions. The root of a verb is simply an expression as either prefixes or suffixes are added and the root is never actually used as a verb so chadash is never actually a word used as a verb, but is an aid in grammar. 

In Jeremiah 31:31, the correct translation is New Covenant. All Jewish translations from Hebrew to English correctly translate it as New Covenant. All Christian translations which are reputable and done by Christian Hebrew scholars, translate it as New Covenant. In Jewish commentaries, highly knowledgable Rabbi's have debated Jeremiah 31:31. Accepting unanimously that it says New Covenant.

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1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Ok lets put that in practice...since you unequivocally stated that Mosaic law cant be carried over into the NT and this is something completely new.

So what Law is written in our hearts now? Remember it cant be the Mosaic Law as you stated the Mosaic law doesnt get carried over into the NT

Remember Jesus also stated

Matthew 22:36-40New International Version (NIV)

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

So what Law is this that these two commandments rest on? Remember it cant be the Mosaic Law because well we are lead to believe that is obsolete now. So there must be a whole set of new laws that rest upon those two great commandements, which by the way is also contradictory considering those two greatest commands are found in the old Law which you say cant be carried over into the NT.

And why is it we still find the Mosaic law in the Millennium?

Also Paul had to prove that he still followed the Mosaic Law since he was being accused of Teaching followers not to follow the Mosaic Law. Very contradictory actions if the Mosaic law hasnt be passed over into the NT with our prophets?

Hi InChrist,  

Can you tell me...

What is the Perfect "Law" of liberty?   and...

How does one fulfill it?

 

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2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Ok lets put that in practice...since you unequivocally stated that Mosaic law cant be carried over into the NT and this is something completely new.

So what Law is written in our hearts now? Remember it cant be the Mosaic Law as you stated the Mosaic law doesnt get carried over into the NT

Remember Jesus also stated

Matthew 22:36-40New International Version (NIV)

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

So what Law is this that these two commandments rest on? Remember it cant be the Mosaic Law because well we are lead to believe that is obsolete now. So there must be a whole set of new laws that rest upon those two great commandements, which by the way is also contradictory considering those two greatest commands are found in the old Law which you say cant be carried over into the NT.

And why is it we still find the Mosaic law in the Millennium?

Also Paul had to prove that he still followed the Mosaic Law since he was being accused of Teaching followers not to follow the Mosaic Law. Very contradictory actions if the Mosaic law hasnt be passed over into the NT with our prophets?

There are more covenants then just the Mosaic and New. We don't have a lot of information about the other covenants but we have some information. Certain laws are repeated in multiple of the covenants. For example, we know that there was a prohibition against murder in the post-Eden covenant, the post flood Noah covenant, and the New Covenant. The repeat of not commiting murder reappearing in those covenants does not mean those covenants are the same. Another law repeated in all covenants is loving and obeying God.

Each covenant is a contract. One can not be involved in a contract given to other people and each contract is complete, individual. The repeat of any individual command is an indication that God saw a need to include that law every time but that does not mean that God duplicated in it's entirety any covenant into another covenant. 

As far as the Holy days, it is quickly found that the Holy days are 'shadows' pointing to Jesus. Jesus died on Passover and 'fulfilled' that shadow/prophetic meaning pointing to Jesus. Passover is then moved into the New Covenant in remembrance of Jesus unlike the Mosaic covenant which is in remembrance of God redeeming Israel from bondage in Egypt. Each of the Holy days comes forward with a new meaning. All having been fulfilled by the millenium.

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44 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Its called the the law of the Spirit of Life (Romans 8:2)

James speaks of the Law as something that brings us liberty, not bondage.

The Mosaic Law in the “letter” without the Holy Spirit’s power in us, is by itself of no use to us.

No man can keep the Law when he is “in the flesh", in otherwords without the Holy spirit.

The letter of the law kills our flesh

When we hear the Mosaic Law we are then convicted of our sins and this is what causes us to want to die to our old sinful nature = liberty

Because when you die to your sinfull flesh, the Holy Spirit then raises us up to new life in Christ and then we are filled with the Holy Spirit, having the Mosaic Law written in our hearts and minds = liberty

Freedom from our old sinful nature

The power of the holy spirit to uphold the righteousness of the Mosaic Law is how one fulfills it

 

Thank you for a response

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Too many errors for me to try to deal with.

Christianity has become theologically illogical.

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6 hours ago, inchrist said:

Ok we going to have to go back in time here:

Moses communed with God for forty days on Mount Sinai who then was received the written Torah in stone

In Exodus 24:7 Israel took the wedding vows and they agreed to obey.

In Exodus 24:15, when Moses went up to receive the written marriage covenant for Israel, Gods cloud covered the mountain for six days and on the seventh day Moses descended down the moun-tain to present to Israel the written marriage covenant in stone. 

Then 4o days later Moses returned to find Israel whoring with the molten calf. 

That is when Moses broke the first set of stone tablets to signify that this was a - broken marriage covenant.

In other words, we find the first divorce of Israel. 

Please note at this point in time there was no mortal man High Priest for the atonement of sin.

Israel is now under the law of Divorce.

Israel is back into bondage again.

Then Moses went back up a second time and he remained there yet another forty days (Exodus 34:4-10) to recieve a  renewed marriage covenant.

At this point, Moses made atonement for all the people and since Moses was from the Tribe of Levi, the Israelites were no longer under the eternal High Priest of Melchizedek, making this the law that was added because of transgression until the seed should come (Galatians 3:19). who would then reverse the Priesthood.

All th laws associated to the Man High Priest is the law that added.

When Moses returned after being in the mountain a second time and he received a “new” set of stone tablets.

This was a “renewed” marriage covenant! The same laws were on these tablets.

What did Moses then do? He placed the renewed marriage covenant [Same Laws] into the ark made out of incorruptible wood.

Jesus followed the exact same pattern as Moses.

After Christ was Baptised, he went in the wilderness for 40 days. Christ was about to restore the role of the High Priest back to Melchizedek, reversing the curse. From a man High priest back to rhe eternal High Priest When he went into the Temple to read the Isaiah 61 scroll.

Moses remained forty day on Mount Sinai receiving the Torah for Israel, Jesus remained forty days on earth following his resurrection as he taught his disciples the Torah. 

Both Moses & Christ made a deposit of the renewed marriage covenant (Torah) into a vessel made of that which is incorruptible .

Even the feasts where this all occured exactly matches.

 You see in Jewish wedding traditions, which Im sure you are well familiar with the bride groom has his two witnesses standing with him as the Bride's atten-dent Matthew 17:3 which happens to be here Moses and Elijah.

Moses as you should be well aware is symbolic of the Torah.

His function is to escort the bride to the bridegroom, as Moses escorted the children of Israel to Sinai to be wed to God there. Moses typifies the Torah Law which is also the “schoolmaster” that brings us to Christ (Galatians 3:24).

Without the Torah, pray tell how are you ever to be braught to your groom, Christ?

Also the Torah became flesh, walking, talking, breathing and bleeding Christ.

Christ the very Torah like Moses who broke the tablets when he found Israel whoring, was to also break the Torah which was his body, broken for us on the cross.

When his body/Torah was broken, the corruptible form of the Torah (in stone or in ink) was also broken (destroyed). 

The same Torah/ Christ was resurrected, that means the same laws have been resurrected and is now called the law of the spirit of life

Its the same Tarah just in a different form.

The Torah in its corruptible form now ressurected into its incorruptible form but still the same laws.

It's why here you will see in the Millennium the Mosaic Law will still be enforced until the new heavens and new earth come

Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come you, and let us go up to the mountain of YHWH, to the house of the Elohiym of Ya’aqob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the Torah,and the word of YHWH from Jerusalem.

Michah 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of YHWH, and to the house of the Elohiym of Ya’aqob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the Torah shall go forth of Zion, and the word of YHWH from Jerusalem.

All of the nations who refuse to make pilgrimage to Jerusalem to keep the feasts will suffer drought and famine Zechariah 14:17

.....................................

It's interesting you mention the Mosaic Feasts point to Christ, as they are shadows of Christ, yet we Christians refuse to celebrate what God has given us as His Feasts that points to His Son.

God celebrates it, we Christians refuse to. 

 

I disagree with about 90% of what you wrote, beginning with the assumption that Israel was divorced at the time of the golden calf and that the second set of commandments is a 'renewed covenant', etc. etc. etc. 

As far as the Mosaic feasts, not all shadows/feasts have been fulfilled so not all feasts are yet included. During the millenium, all feasts have been fulfilled and are celebrated in memory of what Jesus did. Christians do not refuse to celebrate the fulfilled feasts. Historically, at the council of Nicea, to separate Christians from Jews (as some at the council were anti-semitic), changes were made so that the celebration of the feasts would not coincide with the celebration  of the feasts by the Jewish people. The names were also changed. Easter would be Passover and the first fruits wave offering. Pentacost would be Shavuot. So, I do not see it as at all true that Christians refuse to celebrate the spring feasts. I often teach Christians about Passover etc, and Christians are enthusiastic about learning about Jesus and the feasts.    

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Deuteronomy 30:11-14New King James Version (NKJV)

The Choice of Life or Death

11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

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