Catholicism and christianity

[Hoddie]

3 hours ago, Abby-Joy said:

My husband was born/raised catholic and he had no clue what "saved" or "born again" meant until a Christian (outside the catholic church) witnessed to him and told him what it meant to be saved.  His 7 brothers and sisters... none of them knew what it meant either. 

You mean the Protestant view of being "saved' or "born again" right? Well the Catholic responce when asked "Are you saved?" answers this question in three stages or levels corresponding to the three meanings the words "saved" and "salvation" have in the Bible. We Catholic Christians respond that 'we have been saved'. This acknowledges the first meaning of "saved" and "salvation" in scripture--Jesus Christ, Savior, by whose act of salvation we are objectively saved--He died, rose from the dead, saved them from sin. --2 Cor 5:17 So whoever is in Christ is a new creation

We Catholic Christians also respond that 'we are being saved.' This acknowledges the second meaning "saved" and "salvation" have in scripture--the present experience, God's power delivering constantly from the bondage of sin. --1 Cor 15:2 Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

We Catholic Christians will also respond that 'we will be saved', in that we have hope and confidence that God will give us the grace of perseverance; that we will respond to it; and accept his gift of salvation until our death. This acknowledges the third meaning the words "saved" and "salvation" have in scripture--the future deliverance of believers at the Second Coming of Christ. ---Rom 5:9 How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath.

Now as far as being "born again" we Catholics and Protestants agree that to be saved, you have to be born again. Jesus said so: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). However, when a Catholic says that he has been "born again," he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism. Whereas Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being "born again." In Pope Benedict XVI's new encyclical, "Spe Salvi" we read:

"Life in its true sense is not something we have exclusively in or from ourselves, it is a relationship. And life in its totality is a relationship with him who is the source of life. If we are in relation with him who does not die, who is life itself and love itself, then we are in life. Then we live... Our relationship with God is established through communion with Jesus -- we cannot achieve it alone or from our own resources alone."

Greater common ground can be found if we compare the Evangelical "Born Again" experience to the Catholic "Second Conversion" experience which is when a Catholic surrenders to Jesus with an attitude of "Jesus, take my will and my life, I give everything to you." This is a spontaneous thing that happens during the journey of faithful Catholics who "get it." Yup, the Catholic Church teaches a personal relationship with Christ: The Catechism says: 1428 Christ's call to conversion continues to resound in the lives of Christians. This second conversion is an uninterrupted task for the whole Church who, "clasping sinners to her bosom, [is] at once holy and always in need of purification, [and] follows constantly the path of penance and renewal." This endeavor of conversion is not just a human work. It is the movement of a "contrite heart," drawn and moved by grace to respond to the merciful love of God who loved us first. 1430 Jesus' call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, "sackcloth and ashes," fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. The Pope and the Catechism are two of the highest authorities in the Church. They are telling us to get personal with Jesus.If your husbands siblings don't know this, then they were not very well catechized. Plain and simple.

They don't teach that in the catholic church.

I've just shown differntly, so would you care to retract this statement?

They teach Mary is the way to Jesus.

Can you show where this is taught? However, if you are talking about asking saints to intercede for us, our prayers to the saints in heaven, asking for their prayers for us, and their intercession with the Father do not undermine Christ's role as sole mediator (1 Tim. 2:5). In asking saints in heaven to pray for us we follow Paul's instructions: "I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone," for "this is good and pleasing to God our Savior" (1 Tim. 2:1-4).

All members of the Body of Christ are called to help one another through prayer. Mary's prayers are especially effective on our behalf because of her relationship with her Son (John 2:1-11). God gave Mary a special role. He saved her from all sin (Luke 1:47), made her uniquely blessed among all women (Luke 1:42), and made her a model for all Christians (Luke 1:48). Do you refure to her as 'Blessed' as Scripture instructs us too?

Sorry... but that's what I've seen and heard from all of them. It's "another way" and it is not THE Way... Jesus Christ.

Don't be sorry Abby-Joy, you're not the first one in this forum to get what the Catholic Church teaches wrong, and won't be the last. There are a lot of so-called former Catholics that get it wrong all the time, so don't feel bad.

　

Peace

[Guest Teditis]

12 hours ago, ejected said:

Ask the same group ' if you dropped dead this very moment, are you 100  percent sure you'd go staight to heaven'', and with most there will be a slight hesitation. That tells it.

Yes, I suppose you're right about that... they'd bring up Purgatory and I would disagree with them. Still, they do believe that they'll eventually live an Eternal life in Heaven with the rest of us.

But again, how does that hurt their position of being Saved?

[Guest Teditis]

9 hours ago, Ezra said:

Then how will they explain the NECESSITY of sacraments for salvation? Because that is what the Catechism teaches.

But again... don't the Baptists believe the same thing; Water Baptism and Communion are essential for Salvation?

They add these steps and hurt themselves by depriving themselves of certain "richnesses" that we have in Christ

but I don't think that it excludes them from being Saved in the first place... again, they have the essentials down.

[Guest Teditis]

9 hours ago, Abby-Joy said:

My husband was born/raised catholic and he had no clue what "saved" or "born again" meant until a Christian (outside the catholic church) witnessed to him and told him what it meant to be saved.  His 7 brothers and sisters... none of them knew what it meant either.  They don't teach that in the catholic church.  They teach Mary is the way to Jesus.  Sorry... but that's what I've seen and heard from all of them.  It's "another way" and it is not THE Way... Jesus Christ. 

I was also born into a Catholic home and raised Catholic. I was even an Alter-boy for an Auxiliary Bishop... but converted to Protestantism

in my 20's. Still I remember some of what I experienced in the Catholic Church and was never taught that Mary was the way to Jesus.

As for "Saved" and "Born-Again", the RCC may use different language but they do teach these aspects of Christianity. They do teach

who Jesus Christ is and what He did for us.... that's not lost on a Catholic.

Still, I think I understand what you're getting at... how the protestant life is more into interfacing with God and Jesus more directly and

in a more personal fashion.... I like that too.

[kwikphilly]

Quote

In that Body the life of Christ is poured into the believers who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to Christ who suffered and was glorified.(6*)

Hoddie,,,,,you don't see anything wrong with this? Really?

Quote

Unity in the Body

Ephesians 4:12to equip the saints for works of ministry, to build up the body of Christ, 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ. 14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming.…

Berean Study Bible ·

You are preaching works,works,works

[SavedOnebyGrace]

27 minutes ago, Teditis said:

But again... don't the Baptists believe the same thing; Water Baptism and Communion are essential for Salvation?

They add these steps and hurt themselves by depriving themselves of certain "richnesses" that we have in Christ

but I don't think that it excludes them from being Saved in the first place... again, they have the essentials down.

Water baptism and communion are not essential for non-Denominational Christians like myself.  I was water baptized as an infant in the RCC but felt the need, as a new Christian, to be fully water baptized as recorded in Acts.  I did that in obedience to God's word, not as a condition of my salvation.  I was already saved.  Communion is practiced as a reminder of Jesus' Last Supper.  We do that in remembrance of Him.  We do not need to have a priest or minister perform the practice.  Wherever two or more are gathered in His name, He is there.

[Guest Teditis]

1 minute ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Water baptism and communion are not essential for non-Denominational Christians like myself.  I was water baptized as an infant in the RCC but felt the need, as a new Christian, to be fully water baptized as recorded in Acts.  I did that in obedience to God's word, not as a condition of my salvation.  I was already saved.  Communion is practiced as a reminder of Jesus' Last Supper.  We do that in remembrance of Him.  We do not need to have a priest or minister perform the practice.  Wherever two or more are gathered in His name, He is there.

I had a similar experience.... I was baptized as an infant in the Catholic Church and then went through Confirmation.

Later, when I left the Catholic faith and became fully Saved, I was re-Baptized because I felt a strong urging by the Holy Spirit to do so.

Still, there are denominations that teach that in order to be saved you have to be Baptized... no baptism, no Heaven.

[Hoddie]

1 hour ago, kwikphilly said:

Hoddie,,,,,you don't see anything wrong with this? Really?

No I don't Kwick. If you were to go back and read my opening statement to Erza, you'd see where I stated.... "that all sacraments derive their power from Jesus. We don't rely on sacraments "instead of " Jesus; rather, we rely on Jesus, Who acts THROUGH the sacraments which He instituted."

I noticed Kwick you brought up the passages in Eph.4:12-14 and highlighted verse 13. "until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the extent of the full stature of Christ," I find it interesting, because there is no dis-unity in Catholicism if one is in full communion with the church. Now on the other hand, within Protestantism and despite the claim by most Protestants that they strictly adhere to the Bible and that the Bible is their only rule of faith but they all differ in their interpretations. Take for example there are Protestants/non-Catholics who believes that using contraception do not contradict the precepts contained in the Word of God, but there are others who believes the contrary. The Lutherans and Anglicans baptizes their infants believing that it is mandated in the Bible however Born Again Christians, Baptists and Evangelicals opposes them saying that infant baptism is unbiblical. There are also Protestants who approves of divorce, yet, others says that divorce is against the will of God. There are Protestant/non-Catholics sects that approves of abortion, and there are others that do not. There are Protestant/non-Catholic sects that approve of same sex marriages, and some that do not. So tell me Kwick, with all these Protestant/non-Catholic denominations opposing each other in their interpretation of Bible despite of the claim that the Bible is the only rule of faith, who among them is right and infallible in their interpretation? Common sense tells us that two contradictory statements cannot be both true, who among them can we say to have a correct and accurate interpretation of Scripture?

You are preaching works,works,works

So does Scripture. James 2:17: "So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

　

Peace

　

[SavedOnebyGrace]

1 hour ago, Teditis said:

I had a similar experience.... I was baptized as an infant in the Catholic Church and then went through Confirmation.

Later, when I left the Catholic faith and became fully Saved, I was re-Baptized because I felt a strong urging by the Holy Spirit to do so.

Still, there are denominations that teach that in order to be saved you have to be Baptized... no baptism, no Heaven.

Yes, I was confirmed too but I had no idea what it meant.  There are some non-Denominational churches that only recognize the baptismal formula recorded in Acts (in Jesus name only), not the one Jesus instructed His apostles to follow (in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).  Some ministers to avoid the controversy baptized using both formulas, one after the other, before fully submerging.  It shouldn't matter because the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all one, in essence.  Since the apostles baptized like that, they must have understood the Trinity, at least to some degree.

Baptism was especially important to me.  When I was fully submerged, I briefly lost my footing, but I was perfectly calm and at peace.  It was a reminder to me how God saved my life which I previously shared in the thread regarding my testimony. 

[Hoddie]

7 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

 There are some non-Denominational churches that only recognize the baptismal formula recorded in Acts (in Jesus name only), not the one Jesus instructed His apostles to follow (in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).  Some ministers to avoid the controversy baptized using both formulas, one after the other, before fully submerging.

So let me ask you S.o.b.G.  of these differnt non-denominations opposing each other in their interpretation of Bible despite of the claim that the Bible is the only rule of faith, who among them is right and infallible in their interpretation? Common sense tells us that two contradictory statements cannot be both true, who among them can we say to have a correct and accurate interpretation of Scripture?

 

Peace