Marcus O'Reillius Posted December 3, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,050 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 632 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/29/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2016 40 minutes ago, WailingWall said: The "last" trumpet isnt really the "last" trumpet You don't get it. The Last Trumpet ending the Church Age is last when compared to the First Trumpet. But to be able to discern this nuance of the Jewish Festivals (Appointed Times) completely escapes you... The Last Trumpet has nothing to do with the seven Trumpets of God's Wrath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WailingWall Posted December 3, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 458 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/25/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 3, 2016 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said: You don't get it. The Last Trumpet ending the Church Age is last when compared to the First Trumpet. But to be able to discern this nuance of the Jewish Festivals (Appointed Times) completely escapes you... Please explain it to me in detail. I belong to no denomination. Show me through scripture your explaination of the last trumpet and if it holds water i will believe as you Edited December 3, 2016 by WailingWall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted December 3, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2016 1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said: You fight against fellow Christians and call them false followers by saying they follow a false religion. This is not edifying nor beneficial. 1Th 4:16-17 does concern the Day of the Lord - specifically ordering that the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ happens before the Elect are Raptured. Zep 1 also concerns the Day of the Lord - however, it is directly addressed to the Jews as part of "Jacob's Trouble" - namely the Wrath of God that follows on the Day of the Lord. Your manufactured sequence (voice-clouds-trumpet-crying) takes things out of sequence and ignores context. So while both passages are speaking about the Day of the Lord - they are specifically not speaking about the same event. And in your ignorance, those of us who are Pre-Millennial, and not only look forward to our Redemption on the Day of the Lord where some of us will never die, yet they will join those who have been rescued from the grave to be with Christ in Heaven - not everyone who holds to that aspect of eschatology thinks it's seven years apart. In fact, from a Pre-Wrath point of view, they are only half an hour apart... I'm sorry, but the only "manufactured sequence" I'm seeing is what you have said. The 1 Thess.4 event is not about the rapture at one time, and then the resurrection at another. It's about both events occuring at the same time on the 'day of The Lord' when Jesus returns. The whole sequence of events from 1 Thess.4:13-17 are about events that ONLY occur with Christ's 2nd coming back to this earth. 1 Thess 4:13-17 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. KJV All that underlined Scripture is about events that will occur within the same timing of Jesus' 2nd coming. Jesus raises the alseep saints and bringing them with Him, and then the alive saints are "caught up" with them, and all go to Jerusalem on earth per Zechariah 14. All of that happens on the day of The Lord, which is the LAST DAY of this present world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus O'Reillius Posted December 3, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,050 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 632 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/29/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2016 1 hour ago, Salty said: 1 Thess.4:13-17 are about events that ONLY occur with Christ's 2nd coming back to this earth. Yes, I said that. 1 hour ago, Salty said: and all go to Jerusalem on earth per Zechariah 14. No, Zechariah 14 is about a good many things, but what is it not about is saying we all go to Jerusalem. You want to say it does? Prove it from Scripture. 1 hour ago, Salty said: All of that happens on the day of The Lord, which is the LAST DAY of this present world. So there is no Millennium? On the contrary, the Day of the Lord, according to Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, comes at at time only the Father knows and it greatly shortens the Great Tribulation so that not all of the Elect - as determined in number by the Father - will die. I would argue that the Day of the Lord, when Jesus Returns Anew, is NOT the last day of the one 'seven'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus O'Reillius Posted December 3, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,050 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 632 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/29/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2016 1 hour ago, WailingWall said: Please explain it to me in detail. I belong to no denomination. Show me through scripture your explaination of the last trumpet and if it holds water i will believe as you I already did on page 10 of this thread from last Sunday, November 27th. Click on the underlined portion and it will take you there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted December 4, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 4, 2016 On 18/11/2016 at 6:41 AM, WailingWall said: OK. The reason i asked about the resurrections is because what i found in Zeke 37 1THES.4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words. When 1Thes.4 takes place, what really happens? The rapturist would have you to believe we fly off to heaven. What do the scriptures say? Keep in mind that many Rapturist claim youll find nothing of the so called rapture in the book of the prophets {the old testament} but.... AMOS 3 [7] Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. Surely thats not true EZEK.37 [12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, and bring you into the land of Israel. [13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, Theres THE DEAD IN CHRIST who rise first (1Thes.4). The first resurrection. But..... there not headin for heaven. [21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: Its the gathering of Gods people, THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AT HIS COMING. The gathering will be done in the twinkling of an eye. Not by public transit. And were all headin for the land of Israel as promised in the Word. [24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. [25] And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. One shepherd. [26] Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will SET MY SANCTUARY IN THE MIDST OF THEM FOR EVERMORE. [27] MY TABERNACLE ALSO SHALL BE WITH THEM: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Verses 26 and 27. “And so shall we ever be with the Lord” {1Thes.4 v17}. Its quite obvious that 1Thes.4 and Ezek.37 are speaking of the same event. No so called rapture. But the gathering of Gods people to the kingdom Hi Wailing Wall Ezekiel 37 is speaking of the "remnants of Israel" from all generations that will be brought into the 1000 yr kingdom. Israel multiplied as the sand of the sea but only "a remnant of Israel" will be chosen. These will make up the whole house of Israel. The new Israel. The remnants will be brought back "in the flesh" (because they did not partake in the first resurrection) Please note: Quote [26] Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, Israel will multiply during the millennium because they are flesh. They will have children. The resurrected saints do not multiply, and can never die again, but those in the flesh do, they die blessed and will be resurrected in the 2nd resurrection. Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. Isaiah 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. Isaiah 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted December 4, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 4, 2016 (edited) On 12/3/2016 at 11:33 AM, Marcus O'Reillius said: Yes, I said that. No, Zechariah 14 is about a good many things, but what is it not about is saying we all go to Jerusalem. You want to say it does? Prove it from Scripture. So there is no Millennium? On the contrary, the Day of the Lord, according to Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, comes at at time only the Father knows and it greatly shortens the Great Tribulation so that not all of the Elect - as determined in number by the Father - will die. I would argue that the Day of the Lord, when Jesus Returns Anew, is NOT the last day of the one 'seven'. Zech 14:3-5 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle. 4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.KJV You stand corrected on that point per the above. The 'day of the Lord' is about events to occur on the very last day of this present world. It actually ends... this present world and ushers us into Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect priests and kings. The events of the "last trump" of 1 Cor.15 is a day of The Lord timed event. It coincides with the "caught up" event of 1 Thess.4. It also coincides with the final 7th Vial events of Armageddon, etc., for the day of The Lord is also when Jesus comes to defeat Satan's host armies out of the northern quarters. In 2 Peter 3:10, Apostle Peter revealed that on the 'day of the Lord' the elements of man's works are burned off this earth, pointing to God's consuming fire event mentioned at the end of Hebrews 12 and in the OT prophets. This is what ends the great tribulation event upon the Church. Per Revelation 16:15 on the 6th Vial, Jesus is still warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief", and for them to keep their garments lest they walk naked, meaning don't be deceived, pointing to the existence of the Church on earth still all the way to the 7th Vial. On the 7th Vial is His return and gathering of the asleep saints and the Church on earth, and then together with Him on the way to Jerusalem on earth to do battle against His enemies and thus end the reign of Satan and his hosts on earth, ushering us into Christ's Millennial reign. The "as a thief" metaphor both Apostles Paul and Peter used to mark the event when God's consuming fire on the "day of the Lord" will burn on the earth, punishing the wicked and ending the reign of the wicked upon the earth (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). Men's doctrines keep trying to separate all those events into different times which are to occur only on the final day of this world. Edited December 4, 2016 by Salty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus O'Reillius Posted December 4, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,050 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 632 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/29/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted December 4, 2016 On 12/3/2016 at 11:02 AM, WailingWall said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus O'Reillius Posted December 4, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,050 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 632 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/29/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted December 4, 2016 Well Salty, you're right. The only verse we need look at is Zechariah 14:5. Yep! ALL the Saints are coming with Jesus - billions of them - a Great Multitude... right into the field of battle. Because? Because God needs billions to take on hundreds of millions? Because the Commander of God's Army needs grandmothers and little girls to fight with Him? I don't think so. And you must be right again! Only "man's" doctrine separate what happens at the end into different days. Why! It's so much easier to have it all happen on ONE day! Because then nobody is going to know which Day the Lord comes? Because even Jesus doesn't know when the Father is going to set the Day of the Lord. But you do? I don't think so. No, THAT's not right. Not when I look at the totality of prophecy and assemble it from the major, linear, prophetic narratives. Yours is a belief, and it comes from man, just like every other theory and school of eschatology. No, here's what I get when I assemble prophecy from more than one source: War (on Terror) between North and South The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea” with ten Kings (Council of Ministers) Little horn "hamstrings" three "Kings" to rise to power over the Beast of a Nation Rebellion occurs Opposition and exaltation Covenant with many prevailed by the Roman ruler who will come Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven' He wages war against the Saints We are to endure patiently (remember Rev 3:10 and John 17:15) Temple w/ Gentiles 42 mos. Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky' The “one” removed from the midst Gog/Magog War - flash flood invasion of Holy Land Armies surround Jerusalem - pitches his tent at the Holy Mountain. Midpoint Abomination - Setting up the talking image of the anti-Christ Those in Judea flee / Remnant protected Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever “Mikael" arises Two Witnesses 1260 days - call down Wrath Great Tribulation - the Elect are persecuted Sun/moon/star event Day of the LORD Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man Jesus touches down on Mount Zion Jews flee through the cleft of the Mount of Olives Mustering the 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked Jesus resurrects the Saints / Last Trumpet Dead in Christ Martyr's deeds will be remembered (Two Witnesses left behind) Deliverance = Harvest Redemption / Gathering Elect from the clouds Those who are alive and are left Great Multitude arrives in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation Books / Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal First Trumpet fire and blood – 1/3rd of earth burned Avenging Angels – supplying Blood and managing the Fire Wrath of God following the Day of the Lord Second Trumpet - 1/3rd of sea to blood Third Trumpet - 1/3rd of water bitter Fourth Trumpet - 1/3rd of light struck Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3rdf of man killed Seventh Trumpet First Bowl - Sores on Man Second Bowl - All sea to blood Third Bowl - All water to blood Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon Jesus marshals the Remnant through perilous times Two Witnesses die from Demon from Abyss The Great Multitude and the 24 Elders rejoice in Heaven Jesus and His army (144,000) go out to do battle Seventh Bowl – Man of Lawlessness is undone: end with desolations poured out on the Roman desolator Victory at Armageddon anti-Christ and false prophet captured Two Witnesses arise Earth changing earthquake Jews survive the earthquake in Jerusalem End of the one ‘seven’ First three beasts allowed to live a while Atonement of Christ Christ returns to Heaven 30 day period Sojourn to Mount Zion Beast of a Man thrown into Hell – done away with entirely Satan imprisoned Martyrs made alive Rewarding the Saints 45 day period – Encampment Sukkot at Mount Zion Establishment of Millennium reign of Christ Saints rule the earth / Israel is at peace Satan released at end of Millennium Revolt of the nations / their destruction Great White Throne Judgment = separation of the Sheep and Goats Death and Hades destroyed New Heaven and New Earth And that's how I see it. All means 'all that is applicable, or of the whole in context.'Thus Zechariah 14:5 describes Jesus coming with all the 144,000 who are also described in Joel 2. And the Last Day is the Last Day of the Church Age; it is not the last day of the one 'seven'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted December 5, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 5, 2016 18 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said: Well Salty, you're right. The only verse we need look at is Zechariah 14:5. Yep! ALL the Saints are coming with Jesus - billions of them - a Great Multitude... right into the field of battle. Because? Because God needs billions to take on hundreds of millions? Because the Commander of God's Army needs grandmothers and little girls to fight with Him? I don't think so. And you must be right again! Only "man's" doctrine separate what happens at the end into different days. Why! It's so much easier to have it all happen on ONE day! Because then nobody is going to know which Day the Lord comes? Because even Jesus doesn't know when the Father is going to set the Day of the Lord. But you do? I don't think so. No, THAT's not right. Not when I look at the totality of prophecy and assemble it from the major, linear, prophetic narratives. Yours is a belief, and it comes from man, just like every other theory and school of eschatology. It doesn't require a rocket scientist to understand 2 Peter 3:10 about the elements of man's works being burned off the earth on the "day of the Lord" means end of this present world, and of course also the end of the great tribulation event Jesus taught. Any who struggle to understand that has stopped listening to God in His Word and instead listen to men's doctrines. In 1 Thess.5 Apostle Paul was pulling from Isaiah about the "sudden destruction" to come upon the deceived there which say "Peace and safety". That event he timed with the "day of the Lord" as do the OT prophets (Isaiah 13). Nor does it require a brain surgeon to understand the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night" which both Paul and Peter which taught is the same metaphor Jesus used in Revelation 16:15 on the 6th Vial warning His Church still on earth to keep their garments lest they walk naked and in shame. "day of the Lord" = sudden destruction upon the wicked on earth; the Armageddon event on the 7th Vial; end of the great tribulation; blowing of the 7th trumpet which is the "last trump" of 1 Cor.15; the Church gathered to Christ on His way to Jerusalem on earth. All those events occur on that final day of this present world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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