how far do you forgive

[Littlelambseativy]

2 hours ago, Teditis said:

Jesus forgave people that didn't show remorse or ask for forgiveness...

He also said to Love our enemies.... that would require action too.

 

Jesus forgave people who do not even know they were forgiven.

[soonsister]

On 11/20/2016 at 7:51 PM, creativemechanic said:

That we forgive is not in question at all. But my issue is how far does this forgiveness go in terms of how you relate to the person.

I had a couple of situations where people I considered friends made their opinionsof me known  openly and very embarrassingly. So mentally I cut them off. If they need my help, I'll help them, I'll also be civil to them. I don't think I hate them or hold a grudge and prayed that God not let me do so. But the supposed friendship is no where near the same. I won't try to be friendly or go out to interact with them as I once would. I'm wondering if this is right or christianlike

I'll address your query borrowing your experience that I know reading from the periphery and personalizing it first.

I'd be surprised if people I had considered friends had openly insulted me before others would then later call  me for help. What kind of judgment on their part would that represent? I suck in their opinion but I'm worthy of helping them out of a sticky situation?

I believe we are treated as we allow ourselves to be treated. If for instance someone is depraved enough to always be verbally abusive, disrespectful in all manner of behaviors toward me, and demonstrates they can't be trusted, why would I  respect them at all? If I respect myself to want better than that in my circle of friends? 

Someone who openly disrespects me is publicly stating they don't respect me. Or trust me. Therefore, if that person later called asking for help I'd be genuine and polite and tell them to call someone else. Because that person is demonstrating a self serving behavior that will use whom they like for their personal gain. And I won't allow myself to be fed on by a parasite. I remove ticks from my skin if I find them trying to suck on. I sure wouldn't tolerate a human tick attempting to latch on to what they can feed off of because now when they're in need, I look like the easiest target to feed on.

And besides self-preservation and personal self-respect for my part, that refusal could very well be the lesson that person needed to learn about responsibilities for their actions.

I will say that forgiveness isn't something that empowers the offender. Forgiveness is something that frees and heals the offended. Again, it is a matter of self-respect and self-preservation against bad people and their intentions.

If I carry bricks full of anger and grudges against or toward an offender,like that which you encountered, every time I see that person I'm going to give them the power to press on that bag of bricks and bring their full weight to my attention. I'm going to give them the power to take me away from the joy of my day, to falling into the basement of upset at the mere sight of them. And for the reason of holding on to what is an offense or offenses long past.

If I forgive them, I let go of those bricks. Because it is my choice to carry what was bestowed into the universe, my reality, by someone who's personality made the bricks.And while it is a choice for me to carry them, the grudge for how they abused me, the real weight is on that person who is that deficit in character that manifest the behavior that sought to create the bricks to use against me.

I can walk away free by choice. They live with themselves.

And if they're up against it and call me, they'll have to live with their choice when I suggest in all politeness that they seek elsewhere. Because if you help someone like that out when they openly embarrassed you,and premeditated that before committing to the act of giving the insults voice in public, they're not going to change their mind about who you are. They're likely going to think you're an easy mark who has no self respect and can be used again and again. Because they think you're someone who just can't say no to those who would offend you by hitting you in public with brick after brick. 

It's like that old parable about turn the other cheek. Meaning, if someone offends you don't offend back. Just walk away. However, if someone takes that literally after someone offensively delivers a first strike to their face and they then turn their other cheek to that offender, that person sure can't be surprised when that bold offender strikes again.

Why? Because if the offended respected the themselves they wouldn't stand for being beaten to death by an offender. Someone who hits you out of nowhere because they feel like it is going to think you enjoy being hit if you turn your other cheek to them so they can choose to launch another hit.

Those are the fallen we read about in scripture. You wouldn't suffer Satan himself to spit on you if you were face to face. Why would you accept one of Satan's own hitting you when you're face to face? Or, striking out at you with words in public so as to humiliate and demean you before others?

Sure those others can think that offender is a real jerk. However, you're the one that's on display being abused. And it is your choice as to how you feel about that.

We're said to be temples in God's grace. Would a temple look its best as God's representative if the caretaker of it tolerated someone spraying graffiti all over its facade?

When someone shows you who they are believe them. You're not here to save people. That's God's job. Save yourself from evil people. Let God sort the rest.

 

That's my long winded advice. Been there done that. Hopefully it was worthy something to share what worked for me.

 

Blessings,

 

[Guest Teditis]

7 minutes ago, Yowm said:

So the whole world is forgiven?

God is Merciful to those He chooses to be Merciful to... He doesn't need to explain it to us because He is also Just and Righteous.

On the other hand, He commands us to be Loving towards our own enemies and doesn't put any caveats to that command.

He's not asking us to forgive in the sense that we're affording others Salvation, btw... so your little Straw-man argument doesn't work.

But if you'd rather not do the will of God.. that's your choice. Take Care.

[kwikphilly]

Quote

On 11/20/2016 at 2:51 PM, creativemechanic said:

That we forgive is not in question at all. But my issue is how far does this forgiveness go in terms of how you relate to the person.

I had a couple of situations where people I considered friends made their opinionsof me known  openly and very embarrassingly. So mentally I cut them off. If they need my help, I'll help them, I'll also be civil to them. I don't think I hate them or hold a grudge and prayed that God not let me do so. But the supposed friendship is no where near the same. I won't try to be friendly or go out to interact with them as I once would. I'm wondering if this is right or christianlike

Blessings Brother....

     Short answer...."Yes"                     Go in Peace,pray for them & LOVE them ...........from a distance ,unless as you say,they NEED help

                                                                                                                                                                  With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Guest Teditis]

9 minutes ago, Yowm said:

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(1Jn 1:9)

Seems to me everywhere I read, Jesus forgives upon confession, otherwise everyone would be saved.

Did the people who Crucified Jesus ask for forgiveness?

I'm not going down this road with you Yowm... you obviously need to read up on God's Love and how we as Christians are instructed to respond.

The subject seems over your head.

[soonsister]

10 minutes ago, Teditis said:

God is Merciful to those He chooses to be Merciful to... He doesn't need to explain it to us because He is also Just and Righteous.

On the other hand, He commands us to be Loving towards our own enemies and doesn't put any caveats to that command.

He's not asking us to forgive in the sense that we're affording others Salvation, btw... so your little Straw-man argument doesn't work.

But if you'd rather not do the will of God.. that's your choice. Take Care.

Let's explore that for a moment shall we? God is merciful to those whom he chooses to be merciful to.

When we're told God foreknew and predestined all things including our lives before he created this world. Doesn't that say that was the case with the first people? Who were tempted by the adversary that God let to live after the failed war that adversary led in Heaven? Paradise? An angel that wanted to usurp God and his authority in the divine abode gathered other angels to himself and led a war against the Father.

And when they were defeated as omniscience would foresee, God let them live.To be cast down upon the earth God created as a brand new paradise. He deposited the adversary of righteousness here. And then he created the first people to navigate paradise while evil lurked on the surface.

Adam and Eve were clueless about this of course. Because they had no knowledge of this paradigm of righteous and unrighteous. Of good nor evil. They were pure hearted and uncorrupted .

  God planted a tree in their midst that contained forbidden fruit. Fruit that if consumed would bestow upon the innocents that knowledge they did not have of good and evil. Right and wrong. The free will that would afford intellectual reasoning to choose to obey or not to obey.

And of course we know the rest. Including that God's adversary, that is also God (Isaiah 45:7-10), disguised himself as a snake. And why do that? To fool God that was always present here? As if God wouldn't know his creation? Be it actual serpent or fallen angel?

And then we learn that God shows mercy unto those whom he'll show mercy. And by contrast then that is to say he will not be merciful to those whom he chooses to not show mercy to as well.

Why did God not show mercy to the first mistake Adam and Eve made? Being persuaded by an intellectually superior sophisticated fallen angel to eat of that which was planted by Father and yet forbidden those who had no concept of good nor evil. Obedience or disobedience?

We cannot know God's thoughts. However, we are able to think about what we're asked to believe aren't we?

Is it all to be taken literally? Or is it parables?

Why did God wait millions of years to alter the sin paradigm he created for us that doomed us to be property of the adversary he let to live here first the moment we are born?

So that we have to first find our way to Jesus, but only because God chooses first to call us there. And then repent of our human nature that was bestowed in the beginning upon the human race by the creator of it.

It's a mystery.

 

[Guest Teditis]

5 minutes ago, soonsister said:

Let's explore that for a moment shall we? God is merciful to those whom he chooses to be merciful to.

When we're told God foreknew and predestined all things including our lives before he created this world. Doesn't that say that was the case with the first people? Who were tempted by the adversary that God let to live after the failed war that adversary led in Heaven? Paradise? An angel that wanted to usurp God and his authority in the divine abode gathered other angels to himself and led a war against the Father.

And when they were defeated as omniscience would foresee, God let them live.To be cast down upon the earth God created as a brand new paradise. He deposited the adversary of righteousness here. And then he created the first people to navigate paradise while evil lurked on the surface.

Adam and Eve were clueless about this of course. Because they had no knowledge of this paradigm of righteous and unrighteous. Of good nor evil. They were pure hearted and uncorrupted .

  God planted a tree in their midst that contained forbidden fruit. Fruit that if consumed would bestow upon the innocents that knowledge they did not have of good and evil. Right and wrong. The free will that would afford intellectual reasoning to choose to obey or not to obey.

And of course we know the rest. Including that God's adversary, that is also God (Isaiah 45:7-10), disguised himself as a snake. And why do that? To fool God that was always present here? As if God wouldn't know his creation? Be it actual serpent or fallen angel?

And then we learn that God shows mercy unto those whom he'll show mercy. And by contrast then that is to say he will not be merciful to those whom he chooses to not show mercy to as well.

Why did God not show mercy to the first mistake Adam and Eve made? Being persuaded by an intellectually superior sophisticated fallen angel to eat of that which was planted by Father and yet forbidden those who had no concept of good nor evil. Obedience or disobedience?

We cannot know God's thoughts. However, we are able to think about what we're asked to believe aren't we?

Is it all to be taken literally? Or is it parables?

Why did God wait millions of years to alter the sin paradigm he created for us that doomed us to be property of the adversary he let to live here first the moment we are born?

So that we have to first find our way to Jesus, but only because God chooses first to call us there. And then repent of our human nature that was bestowed in the beginning upon the human race by the creator of it.

It's a mystery.

 

Very interesting question, to be sure... but I think they would better suited for a thread of it's own.

There is a lot of mystery to God, imo.

[warrior12]

On 11/20/2016 at 2:51 PM, creativemechanic said:

That we forgive is not in question at all. But my issue is how far does this forgiveness go in terms of how you relate to the person.

I had a couple of situations where people I considered friends made their opinionsof me known  openly and very embarrassingly. So mentally I cut them off. If they need my help, I'll help them, I'll also be civil to them. I don't think I hate them or hold a grudge and prayed that God not let me do so. But the supposed friendship is no where near the same. I won't try to be friendly or go out to interact with them as I once would. I'm wondering if this is right or christianlike

Practically, i see nothing wrong in your actions as you know who you are dealing with  and the pertinent situation.   Kindness is not weakness and you have to be strong and stand to the values that the Lord has admonished us to behave.   A little story i heard once from a sermon, not sure if it exactly the same words, but the storyline is plain.

The story about a boy who went to  church and he was misbehaving , his mother told him to sit down and he would stand and distract the preacher. He did this for a few times well. His mother then told him if he did not stop he would be disciplined.  He sat down and then said to his mother, i am sitting down but inside i am standing up.
You see, you can put on the friendly face and go out and display all the things that would please them, but it is the heart that has to do the forgiving and you have to live and navigate in this world. We are told to avoid the traps and pitfalls, so if it means avoidance, so be it.