Sabbath Issue

[BobRyan]

On 5/12/2017 at 11:18 AM, Limey_Bob said:

In the new testament the sabbath is fulfilled in Christ, who is the Lord of the Sabbath and it's fulfillment. Thank you also for your sarcastic comments.

 

Actually no "Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ" in NT or OT because the Sabbath is not a predictive law - it is a prescriptive memorial law - a memorial of creation week. Thus as Riccardo pointed out - even in the NT the teaching of Christ is "the Sabbath was made for man" and of course "there REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4... and also "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and springs of water" Rev 14:7 and also for all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23 in the New Earth of Rev 21

[BobRyan]

13 hours ago, Wolf Bridges said:

I think the bible is silent on any changes to the Sabbath as pertains to the new testament. 

I know someone who is observant in the way you describe. They turn off all electronics, their work allows them off on Saturday due to their faith. They fast on the Sabbath clock. It's a relationship we have with God through Jesus Christ. I believe that I am not able to judge someone for that. 

It is true that the Sabbath is unchanged in the NT according to the Bible - but it never was a day of fasting OT or NT.

[Wolf Bridges]

4 hours ago, BobRyan said:

It is true that the Sabbath is unchanged in the NT according to the Bible - but it never was a day of fasting OT or NT.

It doesn't have to be does it? A person can choose to fast if they wish on the Sabbath. 

[BobRyan]

19 minutes ago, Wolf Bridges said:

It doesn't have to be does it? A person can choose to fast if they wish on the Sabbath. 

Good question - it might be ok - Jesus fasted for 40 days and a few of them had to be Sabbath. But he was under direct command of the Father doing that.  Isaiah 58:14 says to call the Sabbath a day a "delight" and appears to argue against it (in general) as a day of morning or fasting. Special events/purposes may be ok to fast. I have not looked into that much.

Edited May 15, 2017 by BobRyan

[Riccardo]

Hello brother Bob Ryan.

There is another  Bob, it was not for you, I was accused of being sarcastic,  I'll have to place full names so there is no misunderstanding

Cheers.

[Riccardo]

Thats correct brother Wolf Bridges, it is a personal decision, if you look at the 4th commandment it says nothing at all about fasting. 

[Wolf Bridges]

1 hour ago, Riccardo said:

Thats correct brother Wolf Bridges, it is a personal decision, if you look at the 4th commandment it says nothing at all about fasting. 

That is correct. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. If someone chooses to fast in taking that day to celebrate the Sabbath that is their right. Jesus fasted. The Sabbath was made for man. Not man for the Sabbath. 

[Limey_Bob]

21 hours ago, BobRyan said:

 

Actually no "Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ" in NT or OT because the Sabbath is not a predictive law - it is a prescriptive memorial law - a memorial of creation week. Thus as Riccardo pointed out - even in the NT the teaching of Christ is "the Sabbath was made for man" and of course "there REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4... and also "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and springs of water" Rev 14:7 and also for all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23 in the New Earth of Rev 21

Dispensationalism, (which almost completely dominates American evangelicalism), has an unfortunate habit of reading their theology back into the Old Testament, rather than (correctly), seeing the fulfilment of the Old Testament anti-types in Christ, who is the fulfilment of the whole Bible, including those Old Testament verses so beloved (and twisted to divorce them from their fulfilment in Christ) by the dispies. The Bible isn't a book about keeping various old laws (such as keeping the Sabbath, dietary laws and paying tithes), it's about Christ, he and he alone is the focus of scripture, the New Covenant the law is written on our hearts, that being so, we don't need to focus on "how to keep the sabbath" or "how to pay our tithes" for Christ's righteousness is imputued unto us at conversion, and our sins imputed unto Christ, the dispies however are taking us back to some some system of infused righteousness, whcih is why there is the present honeymoon with Rome by so many American Evangelicals. 

Edited May 16, 2017 by Limey_Bob

[BobRyan]

3 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

Dispensationalism, (which almost completely dominates American evangelicalism), has an unfortunate habit of reading their theology back into the Old Testament, rather than (correctly), seeing the fulfilment of the Old Testament anti-types in Christ, who is the fulfilment of the whole Bible, including those Old Testament verses so beloved (and twisted to divorce them from their fulfilment in Christ) by the dispies.

One may speculate anything they wish. Everyone has free will. Prescriptive laws like the Sabbath and "do not take God's name in vain" were of course perfectly complied with by Christ - but just as the speed limit is a prescriptive law that is not deleted the first time someone obeys the speed limit - so also are the Ten Commandments -- included in the moral law of God of which "the 5th Commandment is the First Commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 still binding on all the saints as it is in that unit of Ten.

I think this detail is irrefutable.

3 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

 

The Bible isn't a book about keeping various old laws (such as keeping the Sabbath, dietary laws and paying tithes), it's about Christ,

You are forcing a division between Christ and His Word. Hebrews 8:6-10 tells us that it was Christ who was speaking the Ten Commandments. The idea that to not take God's name in vain should be a command that we ignore since it is "old" or since it is in "the old Testament and never quoted from in the NT" is an example of an argument supposedly "for Christ" that does not go very far.

3 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

 

he and he alone is the focus of scripture, the New Covenant the law is written on our hearts, that being so, we don't need to focus on "how to keep the sabbath" or "how to pay our tithes"

The idea that we obey the Law by not paying attention to it does not work in Romans 3:31 or 1 Cor 6 or Romans 8:4-9 where we find that the lost are those who "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they" by contrast to the saints who by the Spirit obey it. 1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the Law" -- 1 John 2:1 "sin not" -- and then of course there is all of Romans 6.

3 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

for Christ's righteousness is imputued unto us at conversion, and our sins imputed unto Christ,

Another great example of a Bible detail that does not mean we are free to take God's name in vain.

I think this is an obvious detail that everyone sees clearly.

Just because something is in the OT does not mean we "delete it".

Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"

Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart".

Exodus 20:6 "Love God and keep His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3, John 14:15

Exodus 2:7 " do not take God's name in vain"

James 1:22-26 look into the perfect mirror of the Law - see your defects.

James 4 instead of judging the law -- obey it.

¹¹ Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. ¹² There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?

[Walter and Deborah]

On 5/16/2017 at 5:40 AM, BobRyan said:

One may speculate anything they wish. Everyone has free will. Prescriptive laws like the Sabbath and "do not take God's name in vain" were of course perfectly complied with by Christ - but just as the speed limit is a prescriptive law that is not deleted the first time someone obeys the speed limit - so also are the Ten Commandments -- included in the moral law of God of which "the 5th Commandment is the First Commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 still binding on all the saints as it is in that unit of Ten.

I think this detail is irrefutable.

You are forcing a division between Christ and His Word. Hebrews 8:6-10 tells us that it was Christ who was speaking the Ten Commandments. The idea that to not take God's name in vain should be a command that we ignore since it is "old" or since it is in "the old Testament and never quoted from in the NT" is an example of an argument supposedly "for Christ" that does not go very far.

The idea that we obey the Law by not paying attention to it does not work in Romans 3:31 or 1 Cor 6 or Romans 8:4-9 where we find that the lost are those who "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they" by contrast to the saints who by the Spirit obey it. 1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the Law" -- 1 John 2:1 "sin not" -- and then of course there is all of Romans 6.

Another great example of a Bible detail that does not mean we are free to take God's name in vain.

I think this is an obvious detail that everyone sees clearly.

Just because something is in the OT does not mean we "delete it".

Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"

Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart".

Exodus 20:6 "Love God and keep His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3, John 14:15

Exodus 2:7 " do not take God's name in vain"

James 1:22-26 look into the perfect mirror of the Law - see your defects.

James 4 instead of judging the law -- obey it.

¹¹ Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. ¹² There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?

Amen Brother