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woundeddog

Question about Reformation and a divided church

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woundeddog    1,480

This occurred to me last night while driving home last night and listening to ETWN a RCC station. a few of our participants on this site have said that the reformation was a false movement because today there are so many forms of Protestantism. The implication seems to be that a divided church can not be the true church---- saying that to say this-- Why are there so many different kinds of RC orders- Dominicans, Franciscans, Jesuits,  Carmalite etc-- and --Catholic Eastern Orthodox, Scottish and all the other rites= Isn't that a demonstration of division also- if there was "One True Church" wouldn't all of its teaching and practice be exactly the same???- I think that the theory of a fragmented protestant body of worship being an indication that it is wrong- is in fact a big fail---- seems all churches have fragmentation and that is not the litmus test of veracity~~~~

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OneLight    16,591
1 hour ago, woundeddog said:

This occurred to me last night while driving home last night and listening to ETWN a RCC station. a few of our participants on this site have said that the reformation was a false movement because today there are so many forms of Protestantism. The implication seems to be that a divided church can not be the true church---- saying that to say this-- Why are there so many different kinds of RC orders- Dominicans, Franciscans, Jesuits,  Carmalite etc-- and --Catholic Eastern Orthodox, Scottish and all the other rites= Isn't that a demonstration of division also- if there was "One True Church" wouldn't all of its teaching and practice be exactly the same???- I think that the theory of a fragmented protestant body of worship being an indication that it is wrong- is in fact a big fail---- seems all churches have fragmentation and that is not the litmus test of veracity~~~~

Every group, no matter what you call yourself, who accepts Christ as their savior and allows His Spirit to move in them, is of the same body.  Any division is created by someone believing another has deviated from scripture and refuses to follow them, resulting in them creating their own group.  Further division comes when the focus is placed on their differences and not on what they share in common that would result with receiving the ability to grow together.  Man has divided Christ Body due to allowing one of many personality traits that each of us have ... weaknesses of the flesh we allow to leak out into our hearts and minds.  There are as many reasons as there are denomination, including any form of the above mentioned RCC group structure.  We all can argue scripture until we are blue in teh face, but until there be an inner change, there will be no healing.

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Giller    636

Well the thought came to me today, and the truth of the mater is, the original intentions of a lot of the reformers such as Martin Luther (the German), was to reform the Catholic church, which eventually they came out of, but created denominations that resemble a lot Catholicism, and were not much better.

What I read in the bible is that God does not want us to be either conformed to a church system (religion according to man) or the world, but rather he wants a complete separation and transformation.

Rom 12:2
(2)  And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

It is not a reformation that is needed, but a complete transformation, were we completely lean on God, and his ways.
 

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Willa    8,495

The litmus test is the Bible.  Those doctrines that deviate from the Scriptures must be rejected. 

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Leonardo Von    204
On 11/23/2016 at 4:35 PM, woundeddog said:

This occurred to me last night while driving home last night and listening to ETWN a RCC station. a few of our participants on this site have said that the reformation was a false movement because today there are so many forms of Protestantism.

In fact, the Protestant Reformation never happened. If you analyze the history, you will see that every time someone has honestly stood up to proclaim the truth of Christ and set the people free from the religious system, such an individual has been persecuted, tortured and even killed (starting with own Jesus, the apostles and people like William Tyndale, John Huss, etc.).

Jesus Himself said that it would be so:

 

·        “And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.” (Matthew 10.21,22).

·        “If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.” (John 15.19,20).

 

The question arises: why then, Martin Luther, John Calvin, among others, were not killed by the religious system? Because they were part of the religious system (note that Martin Luther did not stop being a priest).

What happens is that, because of the number of people who were rising to bring the knowledge of the Holy Scripture to the population, seeing that it no longer had any way of preventing the people's access to the Holy Scripture, nothing more indicated than to use someone from within them as an icon to promote this change.

That is, if it was for the people to have access to the Holy Scripture, that this be granted to them through someone who was in collusion with them. So the people would have the feeling that there was a reformation, that such an individual was a trustworthy person, when in fact he was someone from within the religious system, raised to lead the people to read in the Holy Scripture what suited them.

In other words, although the people now had access to the Holy Scripture, yet all power would remain in the hands of the religious system, since the people would be induced to see in the Holy Scripture exactly what suited them. The only difference is that now the people would have the feeling that they were free to think when, in fact, they were still as ignorant as before.

And to this day this manipulation holds. Fearing that the people will know the truth and be set free (John 8:32), denominational leaders will induce people to believe that it is necessary to take a course in theology, to learn Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, etc., in order to understand Sacred Scripture. In other words, they make everything seem too difficult for the people to be discouraged from thinking and thus let religious leaders think for them.

However, the Holy Scripture is of such simplicity that it is to be understood even by a child:

 

·        “At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.” (Matthew 11.25).

·        “And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?” (Matthew 21.16).

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Leonardo Von    204
On 11/23/2016 at 4:35 PM, woundeddog said:

The implication seems to be that a divided church can not be the true church---- saying that to say this-- Why are there so many different kinds of RC orders- Dominicans, Franciscans, Jesuits,  Carmalite etc-- and --Catholic Eastern Orthodox, Scottish and all the other rites= Isn't that a demonstration of division also- if there was "One True Church" wouldn't all of its teaching and practice be exactly the same???- I think that the theory of a fragmented protestant body of worship being an indication that it is wrong- is in fact a big fail---- seems all churches have fragmentation and that is not the litmus test of veracity

As for the question of the enormous amount of religious denominations, one of the explanations can be found below:

 

·        “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” (Romans 9.6-8).

 

That is to say, not everything that says "Lord, Lord" is in fact born again. Notwithstanding, the fact that there is so much religious confusion does not invalidate the Holy Scripture, let alone who Jesus is. Christ is not to blame for the nonsenses that individuals do in His name. If we take the Holy Scripture seriously, everything that is written in it can be fulfilled in our life.

In addition, notice how, at no time does the Holy Scripture record Jesus or the apostles ordering the building of temples or the creation of religious institutions. If it were something so important, Jesus could not have neglected to mention it.

On the contrary: He commanded that the gospel be spread everywhere (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15; Acts 1:7,8) and lived in the place and circumstance in which each one finds himself (Colossians 1:10, Galatians 5:16,25).

What religious institutions have done is exactly what the personnel of the Tower of Babel did: try to reach the heaven with their own efforts to make a name for themselves and thereby persuade everyone to leave where they are to join to them (Genesis 11:4).

The only unity that is authorized in the Holy Scripture is the unity of the spirit, and this through the bond of peace:

 

·        “Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” (Ephesias 4.3-6).

 

May Jesus help us not to fall in religious enticement (Ephesians 4.11-14) and seek the unit in His Word and Spirit in the hearts each other.

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woundeddog    1,480
1 hour ago, Leonardo Von said:

The only unity that is authorized in the Holy Scripture is the unity of the spirit, and this through the bond of peace:

well said !

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woundeddog    1,480
6 hours ago, Leonardo Von said:

In fact, the Protestant Reformation never happened.

I disagree,

6 hours ago, Leonardo Von said:

However, the Holy Scripture is of such simplicity that it is to be understood even by a child:

I agree

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Guest   
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We have unity in the Spirit, not uniformity. There will be differences due to their being different people with different sets of beliefs, having grown up in different circumstances, who come to understand different things in different ways, but what unifies us is not doctrine. It's the Holy Spirit given to us when our lives are in submission to Jesus.

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eileenhat    427

Re: Reforming the Church in modern times

I asked God last month to explain to me the reason for the modern protestant Church.

I felt pulled to study individual teachers on-line (pastors and laypeople) myself and wondered if we still needed assemblies, buildings etc. as God's temple here on Earth (which I feel is part of Rev. 20's message).

Today a close friend told me that even though the numbers of their Church here in California were in decline, due to a variety of reasons (other Churches had a better children's program, a culture that pulls people away from God etc.), they had a new spirit moving in their Church.

No one, of course, had ever given up there, teaching the gospel to non Christians.  But rather than feel dejected and give up, they just looked for programs their aging Church (and much smaller than past times) could do.

Individually, many are going out and joining outreach programs that are now bearing fruit (ex. YES, etc).

I live near a university and many Chinese are coming over here to attend there.   There is a new program that I know of that has Christians getting to know these non Christians (they are told to not share about the Lord unless asked, just the way this program works).  

Anyway, this program allows them to get to know Christians without feeling put on the spot, etc.

We also had a one year program here 5 years ago for Chinese Christians, who Church members got to know as well.   A few moved here, some still visit (one stayed with us last month).

So now, I've been just informed a new program with Chinese students has started at the Church.

They are coming.  These Chinese want the Lord.

We are blessed indeed.

Yes, the model for sharing the Lord evolves.  It is still the WORD however.

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JohnD    4,599

Roman Catholicism (in the person of Emperor Constantine) hijacked Christianity through peace. He may have been on of the four horsemen in Revelation.

Hitler may have been another. 

World Wars I and II may have been prophesied in Revelation...

...we (mere mortal people) interpret things to happen in a small period of time...

this was the mistake made by those who believed Christ would return in the First Century CE.

As for any division in the body Christian... just depends on letting the Author of the Bible (the Holy Spirit) interpret the Bible... or men...

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