Maybe some Protestants/Non-Catholics can answer......

[TheMatrixHasU71]

On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 6:56 PM, Hoddie said:

A question from the Catholics here on Worthy Christian.....

Can you tell/show us where you got your Canon of Scripture?

　

I'm talking about the Canonical books that are those books which have been acknowledged as belonging to the list of books considerd to be inspired and to contain a rule of faith and morals.

This question has been asked on numerous occasions in the past, and more recently in the now closed Lourdes thread. Many have claimed to have answered this question, but have failed to show any historical or Scriptural evidence to back it up. Back on the last page (pg.8) Hazard made an intersting comment coming from someone that adheres to the sola scriptura doctrine. as Follows.

 

Now if the bible does not give a list if the books that belong in the bible as Hazard states, how do Sola Scripturists determine that the books that are in the bible truly belong there? From a Protestant/nondenominational perspective, and if its not in the bible, by who's or what authority determined it?

Do those of you that beleive the bible alone holds all truth, and is sufficient as a sole rule of faith agree with Hazard? If so, doesn't this contradict the premise of Sola Scriptura?

　

Peace

 

Very simply, God alone led men into choosing the right books. Men didn't do this of their own volition. God told them what to choose. I have told you this already, don't know why you aren't listening. All the ones that were left out were left out primarily because their teachings deviated form the OT and the New. Though in a few cases like the shepherd of Hermas they were left out not because they were Scripturally unsound but because they were late manuscripts that couldn't be tied in with the apostles or their immediate followers. But such were very few and far between.

Does the bible alone hold all truth? YES. You will not ever find any place in the bible saying to honor Scripture and man's lying tradition.

I know I am not the only one to tell you this. I am sure others have too and yet you continue to hold on to your belief denying sola Scriptura against all logical reason.

ALL SCRIPTURE is given under inspiration of God....not Scripture and (whatever)

 

Look Hoddie, sistah I love you and don't want to seem mean. But you seem to keep trying to seek approval for your beliefs no matter what anybody says to you and you just aren't going to get that approval here. Because we believe in the truth, we believe in the bible alone and will have nothing whatever to do with any teachings that cannot be found in the bible.

Scripture is the plumbline against which all the teachings of man must be held up. If there is something that cannot be found in the bible at all then it must be rejected. To accept these things as truth is to potentially lead you down some potentially dangerous spiritual paths.

THAT IS WHY the bible says ALL SCRIPTURE.... (and nothing else)

 

Edited December 9, 2016 by TheMatrixHasU71

[TheMatrixHasU71]

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 4:18 PM, other one said:

According to Malachi Martin in 1963 Satan was enthroned as the head of the RCC.   You can get the full details in a book he wrote, "Windswept House".    It's rather eye opening.

Malachi was  Jesuit priest who was allowed to give up some of his vows so he could write books and sell them, and a special dispensation that answered directly to the Pope.

Satan has been the head of the RCC since Gregory the *ahem* Great

[Hoddie]

On Sunday, December 04, 2016 at 3:45 PM, HAZARD said:

Laugh all you like. I showed where the Catholic church changes its laws over time as the church sees fit! see . . .  "any of these laws are subject to change over time as the Church sees fit."

You did no such thing Haz! But I'll get to that in a moment.

With that being said, and if you haven't noticed, I haven't posted in a while. The reason being, I've been on "Vay-Cay"! Did Ya'all miss me? Anyhoo...I'm willing to bet some of ya missed me like ya would miss a tooth-ache! Lol!........... Come-on now......... just having a little fun.

Now, back to the matters at hand. First off Hazard, I just so happened to look in on your own.... "Conversions Happens" thread, and sorry to say, it looks as if R.P. destroyed your credibility when it come to the Catholic Church and her teachings. Sorry. I gotta say tho Haz, you being a so-called former Catholic, (so you say) and beleiving you are well educated in the Catholic faith, it has gotta sting  a little, you being exposed of your ignorance in reguards to the Catholc faith. I was always aware of it, but it's nice to see that others have also come to see it aswell. The reason being Haz, have you not noticed how many non-Catholics have failed to come to your defence in your very own thread?  Ouch!!

I also wrote this, you left it out, or did you not read it?

Yes, I left it out because it was nothing more than utter nonsence, with nothing to back it up! Sheesh!

The Catholic church changes like the weather, God's Scriptures never change, they, "cannot be broken," according to Jesus Himself.

What??? as usual, you are not making a whole lot of sence here Haz. Please show where the Catholic Church change Scripture?

Heb. 13:8, Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Okay......and the reason for you posting this passage is????? Would you care to give your fallible and open for error reason why?

[Hoddie]

On Sunday, December 04, 2016 at 3:59 PM, HAZARD said:

Here's another Catholic hack-job for you! Any church who's leaders condone this type of worship is straight from you know where.

The following quote is the response from the Papal Church in regards to all the evil things that the Popes have done over the centuries. How could any man believe that we honour Christ with evil or obeying Satan or Satanic people. This makes a total mockery of Christianity and all that it represents.

“Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honor Christ if we honor the Pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: “They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!” But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him.” — St. Catherine of Siena, SCS, p. 201-202, p. 222, (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 5: “The Book of Obedience”, Chapter 1: “There is No Salvation Without Personal Submission to the Pope”)

There is no salvation without personal submission to the Pope? Where is that anywhere in Scripture? (Scripture and verse please if you can find any.)

Come on Haz!!!! After a while, this ignorance starts to get a bit old.

I think a Catholic Apologist, Fr. Vincent Serpa explains it the best.

"These are merely an examples of hyperbole which is defined as: obvious and intentional exaggeration. The second definition clarifies even further: an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as "to wait an eternity."

There is no salvation without personal submission to the Pope?

Show anywhere in Catholic teaching where this is required? I have to ask Haz..... don't the taste of your own foot start to get old??

Where is that anywhere in Scripture? (Scripture and verse please if you can find any.)

Oh I see....... now you are going to play thee ol' Sola Scriptura card huh. Which is unbiblical in itself! Good grief! But if thats what you want to play, answer this. Besides, Sola Scriptura, (bible alone) show me where the "Altar Call", (do you even have an altar in your church?) The "Sinner's Prayer" , or the common practice among most every modern non-Catholic service to serve shots of "grape juice" for communion rather than wine as the Bible speaks of? Just to name a few!

Its impossible to correct someone who refuses to be corrected.

I'm not sure you relize how right yo are Haz!

And Willa,,,, I will address your post next okay, right now I am feeling the effects of a little jet-lag.

Anyhoo, looking forward to our future discussions on the topic at hand. (which has yet been answered, on this thread or on Hazards, "Conversions Awakens" thread.)

Peace

　

　

　

　

　

　

　

　

[Ezra]

33 minutes ago, Hoddie said:

Come on Haz!!!! After a while, this ignorance starts to get a bit old.

Frankly Catholics calling non-Catholics "ignorant" is getting a bit old.  Anything that exposes the fallacies and errors of Popery is called ignorance by the same people who ignorantly interpret Scripture.  Sounds harsh, but it is time that we put this accusation to rest.  How can a DIRECT QUOTATION from Catherine of Siena be labeled as "ignorance"?  How can direct quotations from the Catechism of the Catholic Church be labeled "ignorance"?

Let's take one example out of the CCC:

882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."⁴⁰² "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."⁴⁰³

There is no Scriptural authority for the above teaching.  The Roman Pontiff was actually the pagan high priest of Rome called "Pontifex Maximus", and Christ certainly did not give the church of Rome authority over all the other churches and other Christians.  That is pure fiction, or in common parlance, baloney. 

[Hoddie]

On Sunday, December 04, 2016 at 4:34 PM, HAZARD said:

Its impossible to correct someone who refuses to be corrected

How can you possibly try to correct someone when what you preach (Sola Scriptura) is not only incorrect, but unbiblical aswell?

even in love after they make fun of us and ridicule us because we prefer to stay with God's Holy Word alone.

Making fun of, or ridiculing anyone is not whats happening here. Whats happening is asking you to support your stance either historically or scripturally. Something as of yet, you have failed to do.

Is this doing the work of God?

All we can do is point you to the truth, it's up to you whether to accept it or not.

Peace

[Hoddie]

On Sunday, December 04, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Willa said:

The Holy Spirit God Breathed the Scripture and had overseen the sorting of those fake books that contained error. 

And who do you beleive were the ones He (The Holy Spirit) was overseeing, and when did this take place? They surely couldn't have been Protestant, since Protestantism didn't exist until the 16th century, wouldn't you agree? So if it wasen't Protestants, who was it? What only other church exisited when the Canon of the bible was determined? I know the answer, do you?

Those who are Spirit filled can easily discern truth from error. Jesus said He would lead us into all truth since He is the Spirit of Truth.

Thats an intersting statement Willa, could you explain then, out the tens of thousands non-Catholic sects, (with new ones appearing every week) all using the same bible, why each interprets it differently? They all claim to be "Spirit filled" and as you say... "discern the truth from error" yet all can't hold the truth.

Would you not agree that common sence shows that this mentality is not in line with the teaching of Jesus? In Jn.10:16 He called for "One" fold with "One Sheperd". Would you also agree that these divisions of the Body of Christ are in opposition of Scripture, and it could never be possible that the Holy Spirit creating such divisions? So the question remains....somebody has to be in error, which of these sects are, and which are not? Without "One Fold" or "One Sheperd" among these different sects, who is to determine who is or who isn't? (in error)

The acid test is the Bible. Without it we have only traditions of men and old wives tales.

And your acid test would fail. Nowhere in Scripture will you find Jesus saying "all the answers you need will be found in the bible." The problem non-Catholics have is grasping the fact that "all of the Word of God" was at one time passed on orally…Sacred Tradition. Eventually, some of Sacred Tradition was written down…this became Sacred Scripture, which is written tradition. However, Scripture itself tells us that not all of the things that Jesus said and did were written down. And listen to what Paul says about "tradition":

2 Thes 2:15, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." Traditions! Traditions taught by word of mouth, in other words, oral tradition, and traditions taught by letter. Traditions which they are being told to "stand firm and hold to". Sacred Scripture and

1 Cor 11:2, "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you." The Corinthians are being commended by Paul because they maintain the traditions that he passed on to them. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

2 Tim 2:2: "and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also." What we have here in 2 Timothy is an instance, in Scripture, of Paul commanding the passing on of oral tradition.

1 Thes 2:13, "And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the Word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the Word of God, which is at work in you believers." So, they received as the Word of God that which they heard, not simply that which they read in Scripture.

In other words, the Bible clearly supports the Catholic Church’s teaching that the Word of God is contained in both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

So we measure all doctrine by Scripture as enlightened by the Holy Spirit. That is also why we don't need popes or priests to explain the Bible to us.

And what do you have without any authority? (i.e. Magisterium of the Catholic Church)Thousnds of different sects with as many interpretations of Scripture, which eventually leads to confusion, which leads to disunity as we see within the non-Catholic sects today.

We who are filled with God's Spirit can understand it easily. Those who are not filled with the Holy Spirit may have to rely on popes or priests to explain it to them.

And without any type of authority, who determines which sect is "filled with God's Spirit", and whos is not, yours? The one down the street? The one across the street? With so much division, they all can't be correct.

It is sad when any church diminishes the work of the Holy Spirit and claims the work of God was in reality the work of men or of an institution.

Yes, I agree, the disunity among all the non-Catholic sects is sad. Fortunately in it's two thousand plus year history, the Church started by Jesus Christ, the Holy Catholic Church has never diminshed the work of the Holy Spirit.

It is just as sad when the aide of angels and dead saints is sought as intermediaries to God.

Well, that rules out us Catholics. The reason being because those in heaven are more alive than we are. The Lord is God of the living, not of the dead. The fervent prayer of a righteous man is very powerful (Jas 5:16). Those in heaven are surely righteous, since nothing unclean can enter heaven (Rv 21:27). Those in heaven are part of the Mystical Body of Christ and have not been separated from us by death, but surround us as a great cloud of witnesses (Heb 12:1). They stand before the throne of God and offer our prayers to him (Rv 5:8) and cheer us on as we run the good race. Intercession among members of the body of Christ is pleasing to God (1 Tm 2:1-4) and even commanded by him (Jn 15:17). Those in heaven have a perfected love, so how could they not intercede for us? Christ is the vine, and we are the branches; if we are connected to him, we are inseparably bound together as well. Can the eye say to the hand, "I need you not"? Neither are we to say we don’t need the prayers of our brothers and sisters (alive here or in heaven), because salvation is a family affair.

We are to pray only to God and depend only on Jesus Christ as our intermediary.

So you can never ask someone to pray for you? If so, that I find very sad.

But in the end we all will answer to God, won't we?

Yes we will. Being a sinner, this is why I am thankful for the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Wasn't it Socrates who taught by asking questions?. The problem with your doing this is that it just won't work with those of us who know the Truth.

And as I asked before, who is it that determines who has the truth, and who does not?

But we will pray that you also may be filled with and enlightened by God's Spirit and come to full knowledge of the Truth so that you don't have to rely on the teachings of men.

Hmmm.... which one, or whom among the thousnds of different non-Catholic sects is the "we" you speak of, and how do they/you come to the conclusion that I'm not enlightened by Gods Spirit? So in closing Willa, I again ask.... Can you show me using your bible, where you got your Canon of Scripture? And when doing so, could you also show me using your bible where it shows what the Contents at the front of your bible are determined? If all we need to know come from the bible alone, wouldn't or shouldn't this be in Scripture?

　

Peace

[Hoddie]

On Sunday, December 04, 2016 at 8:41 PM, Ezra said:

Since the question was answered adequately it is clear that you are simply TROLLING here and trying to get under the skin of non-Catholics.  Your time would be better spent elsewhere.

I think not Erza! You have however inadequately tried answering with nothing more than your personal opinions. Nowhere have you shown from Scripture where you got your Canon of Scripture.

And as far as 'trolling' goes, the only thing I troll for is Silvers, Chinooks, and Stealhead on the N. Santiam River here in my home State.

Your time would be better spent elsewhere.

You would like that wouldn't ya, but sorry I've gotten under your skin, some of us have to keep you in check!

　

Peace

[Hoddie]

On Sunday, December 04, 2016 at 9:23 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Hoddie,

It also seems to me that you have not replied to my answering your question about 70 and the 75 persons.

regards, Marilyn.

Hey Marilyn, the point I was trying to make is that the Masoretic Text (MT) is a strikingly juvenile version of the original Old Testament dating back to the one thousand a.d. at the earlyist. Being so young it bares very little authority on what the original text contained despite the fact that it is written in Hebrew.

Now on the other hand, the Septuagint (LXX) can be traced to the third century b.c. The oldest of these manuscripts of the LXX are the Leviticus and Deuteronomy remnants dating back to the second century b.c. So my arguement is that the LXX is very much older than the MT by one thousand plus years, and in being so, is more reliable given in the light of related criticism.

Peace

[Hawkins]

Where did the Catholics get the OT Canon then?

The OT Canon is ultimately from the Jews who God no longer authenticate their authority or otherwise we should convert to Judaism. Similarly God can re-authenticate the Protestants when the Catholics may have failed its mission at some point. 

The end result is, 

The Jews can only have a correct OT Canon they were authorized to craft

The Catholics can only have a correct NT Canon they were authorized to craft

Only the Protestants can have both a correct OT and NT Canon