John Robinson Posted December 7, 2016 Group: Senior Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 903 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 516 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/01/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted December 7, 2016 In every one of these "____ is a pagan holiday," there's always an unspoken subtext: "and if you say otherwise you're in sin." The last time I checked there's only one Holy Spirit, and what He instructs one person may be different than what instructs another. Ain't that grand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKay Posted December 7, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 385 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 7,692 Content Per Day: 1.93 Reputation: 4,809 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/28/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted December 7, 2016 1 hour ago, eileenhat said: Yes, ....God does directly communicate. I know God directly communicates. It was more of a rhetorical question. As I found it surprising at first that God would direct you in such away. But then I thought about it and thought well God has a plan for each of us and a path that he wants us to follow. So while I found it to be strange that you were directed by God in this way, who am I to say that it is strange? I don't know how to respond to the other stuff you said about unclean lives and all. I'll just stick to what I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKay Posted December 7, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 385 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 7,692 Content Per Day: 1.93 Reputation: 4,809 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/28/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted December 7, 2016 1 hour ago, eileenhat said: The only place I have located sloppy history was in my school text books. I don't think we had Christmas Tree history when I was in school. With that said I think it would be an interesting topic to find out what this sloppy history is that is printed in your school text books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted December 8, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted December 8, 2016 4 hours ago, shiloh357 said: There are some Druid customs that have been added to the secular celebration, but Christmas did not come from Druidism. I am thinking of the mistletoe tradition as one of them. It was believed by the Druids to be an aphrodisiac. I think we need to be careful to separate pagan winter customs from Christmas. The fact that some pagan customs have infiltrated the secular aspects of Christmas doesn't make Christmas pagan or having it roots in paganism. Gotcha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted December 8, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 8, 2016 3 hours ago, shiloh357 said: It isn't a pagan holiday and never was. Well if we want to nitpick it was not "Christmas" but "Yuletide" that was pagan. So you may be correct technically, but not in reality. It is understood that Christians do not consciously celebrate pagan ideas, but the customs and practices do not belong to Bible Christianity. Yule or Yuletide ("Yule time") is a festival observed by the historical Germanic peoples, later undergoing Christianised reformulation resulting in the now better-known as Christmastide. Scholars have connected the celebration to the Wild Hunt, the god Odin and the pagan Anglo-Saxon Mōdranicht. Terms with an etymological equivalent to Yule are used in the Nordic countries for Christmas with its religious rites, but also for the holidays of this season. Today Yule is also used to a lesser extent in English-speaking as a synonym for Christmas. Present day Christmas customs such as the Yule log, Yule goat,Yule boar, Yule singing, and others stem from pagan Yule. Today the event is celebrated in Heathenry and some other forms of Modern Paganism... In modern Germanic language-speaking areas and some other Northern European countries, historical cognates to English yule denote the Christmas holiday season. Examples include Jul (Sweden), Jul (Denmark),Jul/Jol (Norway), Jól (Iceland and the Faroe Islands), Joulu (Finland), Joelfest (Friesian), Joelfeest (Dutch) and jõulud (Estonia) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted December 8, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted December 8, 2016 I hear testimonies like Eileen's where the person believes God led them away from Christmas. I also hear testimonies of people who God leads into the Christmas celebration. Are people being deceived? No, I have come to believe that there are some things with which God leads people different ways and different directions for reasons we may or may not conceive or realize. For example, I've felt strong convictions against secular music all my life, and I thought any Christian who listened to it was in sin. But I have since learned that this is a path God means for me but not for everyone. Eileen has been led down a "no Christmas" path, just as I was led down a "no secular music" path. Why? I have no idea. But what I do know is that we should not be judging each other over whether or not we decorate a tree and give presents on Dec. 25. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 8 hours ago, Ezra said: Well if we want to nitpick it was not "Christmas" but "Yuletide" that was pagan. So you may be correct technically, but not in reality. It is understood that Christians do not consciously celebrate pagan ideas, but the customs and practices do not belong to Bible Christianity. Yule or Yuletide ("Yule time") is a festival observed by the historical Germanic peoples, later undergoing Christianised reformulation resulting in the now better-known as Christmastide. Scholars have connected the celebration to the Wild Hunt, the god Odin and the pagan Anglo-Saxon Mōdranicht. Terms with an etymological equivalent to Yule are used in the Nordic countries for Christmas with its religious rites, but also for the holidays of this season. Today Yule is also used to a lesser extent in English-speaking as a synonym for Christmas. Present day Christmas customs such as the Yule log, Yule goat,Yule boar, Yule singing, and others stem from pagan Yule. Today the event is celebrated in Heathenry and some other forms of Modern Paganism... In modern Germanic language-speaking areas and some other Northern European countries, historical cognates to English yule denote the Christmas holiday season. Examples include Jul (Sweden), Jul (Denmark),Jul/Jol (Norway), Jól (Iceland and the Faroe Islands), Joulu (Finland), Joelfest (Friesian), Joelfeest (Dutch) and jõulud (Estonia) By that logic, then going to Church on Sunday is pagan. The ancient Teutonic pagans in Europe used to gather to worship the sun on the first day of the week. They called their gathering a "kirke." The word "kirke" is Gaelic/Teutonic for "circle." "Kirke" is where the English word "Church" comes from. They would stand in a "kirke" or circle every Sunday to worship their sun god. While the Bible uses the word "church" every place where ekklesia appears in the Greek text, there is no etymological connection. Ekklesia does not translated to circle. It means "called out ones." You can make anything "pagan" if you try hard enough. There is no time of year that the pagans don't have their own festivals and traditions. And similarities between traditions is mostly cosmetic. The singing of hymns, has been part of pagan traditions for thousands of years. Are Christians being "pagan" because we sing hymns every Sunday morning? I mean the singing of hymns is not limited to Christmas songs we sing at this time. What has happened is that pagan traditions have crept into Christmas. I don't know of anyone that burns a Yule log. I have never been to a home that had mistletoe at Christmas. Perhaps some do. I dunno. I think there are some of those traditions that happen more in Europe than in the US. In the US the secular celebration of Christmas is really about consumerism and the retailer telling people we need to give our loved ones 52" flat screen TV and cars for Christmas. What this whole "Christian is pagan" thing has really done is drive sinners away from Jesus. We have re-enforced why unbelievers believe the story of Jesus is really a retelling of pagan myth and not truth. We have given the skeptics a huge gift. We have given them one more way to be comfortable in their sin and unbelief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted December 8, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 8, 2016 17 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: By that logic, then going to Church on Sunday is pagan Let's not deflect the issue. Going to church is definitely NOT pagan since New Testament Christians were meeting regularly since Pentecost. Just because the first day of the week is called "Sunday" does not mean that it is NOT the first day of the week, also called The Lord's Day. And the disciples did meet "on the first day of the week" to "break bread" (the Lord's Supper). Christians who know better call "Sunday" The Lord's Day (and in earlier times it was also called "the Christian Sabbath"). Justin Martyr called it "the day of the sun" because pagans had made it into that. But then, every day of the week has a pagan connection. It is significant that the apostle John says that he was "in the Spirit" on the Lord's Day, since all Christians should also be in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (REv 1:10,11). I realize that the Seventh Day Adventists make a big deal out of Sunday worship, but they actually ignore what is revealed in the New Testament. "The morrow after the sabbath" is the first day of the week, and that was also the Day of Pentecost and the Day of Resurrection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 5 hours ago, Ezra said: Let's not deflect the issue. Going to church is definitely NOT pagan since New Testament Christians were meeting regularly since Pentecost. Just because the first day of the week is called "Sunday" does not mean that it is NOT the first day of the week, also called The Lord's Day. And the disciples did meet "on the first day of the week" to "break bread" (the Lord's Supper). I am not deflecting the issue. I am explaining how you can make anything pagan if you want to. The customs of the pagans on Sunday pre-date the Church in the first century. My point is that the attempt draw connections between Christian customs and pagan customs is really tenuous, at best given I can make all kinds of purely cosmetic connections between the two. Quote Christians who know better call "Sunday" The Lord's Day (and in earlier times it was also called "the Christian Sabbath"). Justin Martyr called it "the day of the sun" because pagans had made it into that. But then, every day of the week has a pagan connection. It is significant that the apostle John says that he was "in the Spirit" on the Lord's Day, since all Christians should also be in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (REv 1:10,11). I realize that the Seventh Day Adventists make a big deal out of Sunday worship, but they actually ignore what is revealed in the New Testament. "The morrow after the sabbath" is the first day of the week, and that was also the Day of Pentecost and the Day of Resurrection. The point I was making was not about the day, but the word, "church" and its pagan roots and the pagan customs of singing hymns. If we really want to be consistent in avoiding paganism, then we need to purge the church of anything that could be construed as "pagan." But that's not gong to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 I think, in regard to Christmas, that the past is very similar to life in general The past is just the prelude to what we are today... it's molded us and shaped us in different ways... but what really matters is today and how we live it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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