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The Pagan Origins Myth About Christmas


Guest shiloh357

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Agree Ted,what matters is how we live every day ...

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3 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I am not deflecting the issue.  I am explaining how you can make anything pagan if you want to.  The customs of the pagans on Sunday pre-date the Church in the first century.   My point is that the attempt draw connections between Christian customs and pagan customs is really tenuous, at best given I make all kinds of cosmetic connections between the two.
 

The point I was making was not about the day, but the word, "church"  and its pagan roots and the pagan customs of singing hymns.  If we really want to be consistent in avoiding paganism, then we need to purge the church of anything that could be construed as "pagan."    But that's not gong to happen.

Then there are all the pagan aspects of a Christian wedding.  From wedding vows to the exchange of rings to the flower girl to the throwing of rice.  All those have ties to pagan rituals. 

If we are going to go after a single day, this should be an even bigger issue since we have weddings in our churches all year around.

Now if you will excuse me, I have to go turn on my Christmas lights so the nice people flying into to town can see them, I like to spread some Christmas cheer in the morning also.

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23 hours ago, eileenhat said:

If a child steals, we educate.

If an adult steals we incarnate.

If a Christian sins, they ask for forgiveness.

If a Christian sins unknowingly, then there is the question did they realize they were sinning at any time?

I can attest that as I have grown in the Lord's presence, the laws that govern my behavior shift to a sin free state.

In other words, you have now been told that one person did receive direct guidance, now, about the ramifications of celebrating Nimrod's day.

What happens now, will be that the debating stage is in effect.

On-line many channels are indicating the sinful nature of celebrating Satan (aka Nimrod) in the form of Tree cutting, bring the Tree into the house etc.

Eventually it will be a well formed topic.

It is heading in that direction.

I do not have to hedge about it any longer.  I'm clear on it.

 

 

Eileen,God directs us all in different ways ,

what the Holy Spirit allows person to do He doesn't always allows somebody else to do..

If you're born again then the Holy Spirit will guide you all the way to the end of our lives ..

Amen?

 

 

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Guest shiloh357
5 minutes ago, Giller said:

 

First of all we have to be careful how we take things, I found some history about hymns, how accurate it is, I do not know, but here it is:

(https://www.reference.com/art-literature/origin-hymns-17cd334402adb592)

 

(The earliest known hymns were composed in Greece as songs of honor to the Greek gods, leading figures and heroes. Examples are the Homeric Hymns written in the 7th century B.C. The word “hymn” comes from the Greek word “hymnos,” meaning “song of praise.)

 

 

The word hymn itself has no bad meanings, it just means to sing songs of praise, and it happens to come from the Greek word hymnos, and was part of the Greek language.

So to say that the word Hymn itself is pagan, is not true, the only thing that would be accurate here, is that they called their pagan songs, songs of praise, but the word hymn itself did not have an idol worshiping meaning to it, it just means to sing songs of praise, which these people who sung songs of praise to honor their Greek gods, were doing something pagan (idol worship).

The part that was truly pagan was the songs they sang, and this is what the word of God says about the word hymn.

 

Eph 5:19
(19)  Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

The point is that the attempt to make singing hymns a pagan tradition in the church is as tenuous and fallacious  as making Christmas pagan.  

Quote

 

Now as concerns the word church, this is what I found:
 

(http://messianicfellowship.50webs.com/church.html)

(So where did the word Church come from? It comes from the German word KIRKE. Gary Amirault, in an article on the internet entitled;"Circe (Church)--Daughter of the Sun")

 

How accurate it is, I do not know, but obviously the word church as concerns this definition, was used in a wrong way.

Now for the Strong's concordance meaning to the word church:

(Strong’s concordance)

 

(G1577

 

ἐκκλησία

 

ekklēsia

 

ek-klay-see'-ah

 

From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

 

Total KJV occurrences: 115)

 

The word church is mentioned in it's meanings, and of course the words:"a calling out".

Now we know that the church is not the building but the people.

We have to be careful what we call pagan or not, and I would rather trust what the word of God says.

 

Again, "Church" is not a translation of Ekklessia.   You cannot get the word Church out of that Greek word.  "Church" does not have roots in Greek.  It is a Teutonic word and it has a totally different meaning.  

"Ekklesia" should never have been removed or "translted."  It should have remained and used in the English text, to be truthful, as "Church" does not at all reflect the meaning of Ekklesia.

But nevertheless it is not pagan to use the word "Church."   But if we are going to be completely consistent and demand that Christmas is pagan and we cannot celebrate it because of its pagan roots, that same standard should be applied across the board to EVERY tradition in the Church that we can tie back to paganism. 

God also said that we are not to have the names of pagan gods on our lips.  Does that mean we have to avoid using the names of the days of the week or the names of the months?    It just starts getting ridiculous.

Now as concerns the word Christmas, and Noel, they both point to meanings that are not biblical, and how can you mix an holy name like Christ, with the unholy name of the mass, which the Catholic mass is an abomination to God, now the mass is a type of idol worship.

 

Now as concerns the French word Noel, which they say points to the birth of Christ, the word Noel, really points to the Pere Noel, which is what Santa Claus is called in French.

Santa Claus, is a myth, now they may have got some story of some  catholic St Nick, to be a part of this story, but it turned into a myth, to were Santa Claus can see if you have been bad or good, it is like he is all seeing.

God says this:

1Ti 4:7
(7)  But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

 

Quote

 

And as concerns the word Sunday, yes it is pagan, it pointed to sun god worship, but the Lord's day has nothing to do in association to the word Sunday, in fact the disciples , in the bible, never called the first day of the week Sunday, yet the Roman calendar did exist back then, though maybe not in all of it's names, but in most of them yes.

When God made the Lord's day, it was irrespective to the word Sunday, for God does not base his decisions based on what the pagans do, he does things irregardless to that.

What a lot of people have said in this thread scares me, because it shows a lack of concern for what the Lord thinks of things, and a lot of people seem to be more concerned about, how they feel about things, rather than what pleases God.

 

The problem I see in making everything in Christianity "pagan" is that it justifies unbelief in the hearts of the skeptics and those who will use these things as a justification for rejecting Christ as nothing more than a pagan myth repackaged for Christian consumption.

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Guest shiloh357
2 minutes ago, Giller said:

Oh well I will let you say what you want Shiloh, but I do not agree with your assertion.

Their needs to be the fear of God in our midst.

Which is very much lacking.

We go by the word of God, even if it hurts us to the very core.

You don't get to decide for the rest of us what the  "fear of God" looks like. 

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On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 0:20 AM, nebula said:

I like Christmas because it's a break from the norm - decorations, parties, door decorating, etc. - the lights are pretty, it's a stimulus for having a visit from my mom and having a family celebration together, and last but not least a time to reflect on the Incarnation.

This :):thumbsup: 

It is a time of reflection on the birth, death, and resurrection of Christ. Also a great time of the year to be generous. It is a time to focus on family and friends too. A time to be thankful for God's perfect gift through Jesus.

God bless,

GE

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15 hours ago, nebula said:

I hear testimonies like Eileen's where the person believes God led them away from Christmas. I also hear testimonies of people who God leads into the Christmas celebration.

Are people being deceived?

No, I have come to believe that there are some things with which God leads people different ways and different directions for reasons we may or may not conceive or realize. 

For example, I've felt strong convictions against secular music all my life, and I thought any Christian who listened to it was in sin. But I have since learned that this is a path God means for me but not for everyone.

Eileen has been led down a "no Christmas" path, just as I was led down a "no secular music" path. Why? I have no idea. But what I do know is that we should not be judging each other over whether or not we decorate a tree and give presents on Dec. 25.

@nebula I think too many times people see black or white when the truth in instances like this issue of Christmas is more grey.

I can celebrate Christmas in good conscious AND @eileen can feel a personal conviction not to celebrate Christmas.

Nebula you can feel led as a personal conviction to not listen to "secular" music AND I can be led to listen to "secular" music in moderation.

The problem comes in these conversations when people take a personal conviction and translate it to a universal Biblical truth that everyone has to follow. Particularly on issues where the Bible is not clear or there are multiple interpretations we should be open to alternatives.

God bless,
GE

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Guest shiloh357
1 hour ago, GoldenEagle said:

@nebula I think too many times people see black or white when the truth in instances like this issue of Christmas is more grey.

I can celebrate Christmas in good conscious AND @eileen can feel a personal conviction not to celebrate Christmas.

Nebula you can feel led as a personal conviction to not listen to "secular" music AND I can be led to listen to "secular" music in moderation.

The problem comes in these conversations when people take a personal conviction and translate it to a universal Biblical truth that everyone has to follow. Particularly on issues where the Bible is not clear or there are multiple interpretations we should be open to alternatives.

God bless,
GE

I could see it as an issue of conscience if there was any truth to the "Christmas is pagan" claims.  The problem is that there is no truth to them.   It's all contrived.   So it is really not the same as choosing between secular vs. religious/Christian music.   It is a difference between falling for a lot of history revisionism and false claims vs. the Truth. 

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On 12/6/2016 at 5:09 PM, shiloh357 said:

It’s generally accepted that early Christians adopted December 25th as the day of Christ’s birth to co-opt the pagan celebration of the winter solstice. Some believe this fact undermines Christianity.

But according to Professor William Tighe, this “fact” may actually be a myth.

 

http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blog/myth-pagan-origins-christmas

As pagan as I would consider Christmas to be, it is still the best time of year to share the gospel with unbelievers.  For some reason, people are just more open to hearing good news so I'd recommend believers to utilize the time wisely. 

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11 minutes ago, Remnantrob said:

As pagan as I would consider Christmas to be, it is still the best time of year to share the gospel with unbelievers.  For some reason, people are just more open to hearing good news so I'd recommend believers to utilize the time wisely. 

Amen to that last part, Christmas is a month long opening of the hearts of many people, why would you ignore it or bash it?

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