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[RevelationWriter]

Also, IN the BEGINNIG WAS the word, and the word WAS with God, and the word WAS God."

'WAS' this not of a past tense situation, 'IN the BEGINNING' ?

[HAZARD]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Shabbat shalom, HAZARD.

Sure, I'd be happy to oblige. The answer is to be found in the fact that this "laying of the foundations and the corner stone" in Job 38:4-6 is NOT the original Creation of this earth! It's the RE-CREATION of this earth AFTER the Flood!

First, consider the amount of damage that the earth suffered:

Genesis 7:11-12, 17-20
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
...

17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven (Hebrew: tachat kaal hashaamaayim = "under all the-[2]-skies"), were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
KJV

This was a GLOBAL event. The reason why they knew that the Flood rose 15 cubits higher than the mountains was because this was the CLEARANCE of the water displaced by the ark! In other words, it was AT LEAST 15 cubits over the height of the then-existing mountains because the ark didn't scrape bottom going over them! "ALL the fountains of the great deep" implies that EVERY subterranean source of water contributed to the Flood. This would lead to volcanism and movements of the techtonic plates leading to seaquakes.

We are given additional information in Psalm 104:

Psalm 104:1-35
1 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
3 Who layeth the beams (Hebrew: Hamqaareh ="Who brought about") of his chambers (Hebrew: aliyowtaayow = "his-lofty-[place]") in the waters (Hebrew: bamayim = "in-[2]-waters"): who maketh the clouds (Hebrew: `aaViym = "dark, scud clouds") his chariot (Hebrew: rkuwVow = "his-vehicle"): who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
(Clouds did not occur before the Flood. Instead, "there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground." - Gen. 2:6)
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. (The original foundations were indeed "removed" during the Flood.)
6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains. (This is DEFINITELY talking about the global Flood!)
7 At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away. (The waters receded.)
8 They go up by the mountains (Hebrew: ya`aluw hahariym = "the-mountains ascended"); they go down by the valleys (Hebrew: yeerduw bqaa`uwt = "splits [between mountains] descended") unto the place which thou hast founded for them.
9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth. (This "bound" is the continental shelves.)
10 He sendeth the springs into the valleys, which run among the hills.
11 They give drink to every beast of the field: the wild asses quench their thirst.
12 By them shall the fowls of the heaven have their habitation, which sing among the branches.
13 He watereth the hills from his chambers: the earth is satisfied with the fruit of thy works.
14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;
15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.
16 The trees of the LORD are full of sap; the cedars of Lebanon, which he hath planted;
17 Where the birds make their nests: as for the stork, the fir trees are her house.
18 The high hills are a refuge for the wild goats; and the rocks for the conies.
19 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.
20 Thou makest darkness, and it is night: wherein all the beasts of the forest do creep forth.
21 The young lions roar after their prey, and seek their meat from God.
22 The sun ariseth, they gather themselves together, and lay them down in their dens.
23 Man goeth forth unto his work and to his labour until the evening.
24 O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.
25 So is this great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts.
26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.
27 These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season.
28 That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good.
29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
31 The glory of the LORD shall endure for ever: the LORD shall rejoice in his works.
32 He looketh on the earth, and it trembleth: he toucheth the hills, and they smoke.
33 I will sing unto the LORD as long as I live: I will sing praise to my God while I have my being.
34 My meditation of him shall be sweet: I will be glad in the LORD.
35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
KJV

So thoroughly and violently did the earth change, that Peter gave us this information:

2 Peter 3:3-7
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. (This is called "uniformitarianism" today.)
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water (the waters below the sky) and in the water (within the waters above the sky):
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (The society that existed before the Flood perished in the Flood.)
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
KJV

Thus, he recognized these two earths and their skies being so different as to be two different ages of men.

Now, when we look closely at Job 38, we see this same information:

Job 38:1-20
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof (Hebrew: adaaneyhaa = "its-footings") fastened (Hebrew: taaba' = "sunk")? or who laid the corner stone thereof (Hebrew: eben pinaataah = "its-pinnacle stone," presumably upon its highest mountain);
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
KJV

Thus, surrounding this verse 7 are evidences for the time of the FLOOD!

Sure, I'd be happy to oblige. The answer is to be found in the fact that this "laying of the foundations and the corner stone" in Job 38:4-6 is NOT the original Creation of this earth! It's the RE-CREATION of this earth AFTER the Flood!

I agree, but Adam was not created before the pre-Adamite flood, he was created during the re-creation and restoration of the Earth for man in Gen. 1:27, on day 6.

[HAZARD]

1 hour ago, RevelationWriter said:

- Okay thanks.

I no longer believe God came in the flesh as Jesus.

I believe "The Word Became Flesh' and Or was made flesh.

- But I do believe Jesus is god because He came forth from God.

For even Jesus said (as the word of God) that in their Law the Jews are gods.

Being also that their God in the O.T. was praised as "The God Of gods".

Meaning them to have been Immortal as their God and Father. Making them 'gods' too.

Jesus being "The Only Begotten god" - John 1:18 (Greek)

- Anyway, when Jesus said

"if you are willing to receive it, (John the Baptist) is Elijah who was to come." - Matt.11:14

So then Elijah was incarnate as John The Baptist?

- And when Jesus ask His Disciples who do men say He is.

They answered that men say Jesus The Son Of Man, is one of The Prophets?

Did they believe too as Jesus said, one Prophet could be Incarnate as one of The Prophets as well?

Seeing Jesus called Himself The Son Of Man when The Prophet Ezekiel is also called Son Of Man.

Sorry, I just ponder on . . .

 

 

 

God the Father was not made flesh, The Word, who was with God the Father became flesh. The Word was a member of the Godhead which consists of the Father, the Word, now Jesus, and the Holy Ghost.

John 1:1-4, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2, The same was in the beginning with God.
    3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    4, In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

The Word became flesh;

John 1:14, And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, RevelationWriter said:

- Okay thanks.

I no longer believe God came in the flesh as Jesus.

I believe "The Word Became Flesh' and Or was made flesh.

- But I do believe Jesus is god because He came forth from God.

For even Jesus said (as the word of God) that in their Law the Jews are gods.

Being also that their God in the O.T. was praised as "The God Of gods".

Meaning them to have been Immortal as their God and Father. Making them 'gods' too.

Jesus being "The Only Begotten god" - John 1:18 (Greek)

- Anyway, when Jesus said

"if you are willing to receive it, (John the Baptist) is Elijah who was to come." - Matt.11:14

So then Elijah was incarnate as John The Baptist?

- And when Jesus ask His Disciples who do men say He is.

They answered that men say Jesus The Son Of Man, is one of The Prophets?

Does that mean they had the belief that one of The Prophets could be Incarnate as Jesus also?

Shalom, RevelationWriter.

Boy! Have we EVER been influenced by Greek mythology!

No! Yeshua` is NOT a "demigod!" A "demigod" is defined as "a being with partial or lesser divine status, such as a minor deity, the offspring of a god and a mortal, or a mortal raised to divine rank: some Roman emperors claimed descent from demigods such as Hercules."

Please, be careful. You see, the Greek word (NT:1142) "daimoon," transliterated through the Latin "daemon" as "demon," or translated as "a devil," is the Greek word that means a "lesser god." This all refers back to Graeco-Roman mythology, which has had a tremendously negative impact on our understanding of God's Word through the centuries.

Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) had the SPIRIT of Eliyahu (Elijah), but that means he had the ATTITUDE of Eliyahu, not that he was Eliyahu himself! Don't you remember what Yochanan said about himself when asked by the P'rushiym (the Pharisees)?

John 1:19-24
19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
KJV

One should also not believe in reincarnation, which is what you are talking about.

Oh, and "God of gods" meant that He was FAR SUPERIOR to the gods that other nations worshipped because He is the ONE AND ONLY REAL GOD, YHWH, not just an idol made of wood or stone. 

Edited January 15, 2017 by Retrobyter
to include a verse

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Quote

Sure, I'd be happy to oblige. The answer is to be found in the fact that this "laying of the foundations and the corner stone" in Job 38:4-6 is NOT the original Creation of this earth! It's the RE-CREATION of this earth AFTER the Flood!

I agree, but Adam was not created before the pre-Adamite flood, he was created during the re-creation and restoration of the Earth for man in Gen. 1:27, on day 6.

WHAT?! Excuse me, but there's absolutely NO SUCH THING as a "pre-Adamite flood!" Where'd you get THAT poppycock?

I was talking about the Flood during the lifetime of Noach (Noah) who was the tenth generation listed from Adam, recorded in Genesis 7-9! THERE IS NO GAP BETWEEN GENESIS 1:1 AND 1:2!

[HAZARD]

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

WHAT?! Excuse me, but there's absolutely NO SUCH THING as a "pre-Adamite flood!" Where'd you get THAT  poppycock?

I was talking about the Flood during the lifetime of Noach (Noah) who was the tenth generation listed from Adam, recorded in Genesis 7-9! THERE IS NO GAP BETWEEN GENESIS 1:1 AND 1:2!

In Your opinion only.

("poppycock?") I got what you call poppycock from God's Holy Word! If you think God's Word is poppycock, that's your problem.

There were two great floods on the Earth. The first where God destroyed His original creation because of Lucifers rebellion, and the second, Noah's flood because of mans rebellion.

Lucifers flood, everything was destroyed, all life, no light, the earth made empty and void.

Noah's flood, all life was not destroyed. Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives were left alive, plus all animals and the sun and moon was not prevented from giving light.

Here are all the Scriptures proving this occurred, read them for yourself then believe them or not??

Noahs flood which I will post as . 'N.F.' Lucifers flood, L.F.

L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23).
N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16).

L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22)

L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22).

L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5).
N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22).

L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20).

L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10).
N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7).
N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9).
N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah's flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22).

L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17).

L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16).

L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7).

L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18).
N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4).

L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11).

 

N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16).

[Retrobyter]

On 1/15/2017 at 2:33 PM, HAZARD said:

In Your opinion only.

("poppycock?") I got what you call poppycock from God's Holy Word! If you think God's Word is poppycock, that's your problem.

Shalom, HAZARD.

No, it's not just my "opinion."

First, and let's be completely clear about this, I do NOT "think God's Word is poppycock"; I DO, however, believe that your INTERPRETATION of God's Word CERTAINLY IS POPPYCOCK! (Wow! I haven't heard this ... rot ... since I was in high school back in the mid 70's! So, there's still some of you guys out there, huh? Don't worry; this theory can be remedied.)

Quote

There were two great floods on the Earth. The first where God destroyed His original creation because of Lucifers rebellion, and the second, Noah's flood because of mans rebellion.

Lucifers flood, everything was destroyed, all life, no light, the earth made empty and void.

Noah's flood, all life was not destroyed. Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives were left alive, plus all animals and the sun and moon was not prevented from giving light.

Here are all the Scriptures proving this occurred, read them for yourself then believe them or not??

Noahs flood which I will post as . 'N.F.' Lucifers flood, L.F.

L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23).
N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16).

L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22)

L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22).

L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5).
N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22).

L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20).

L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10).
N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7).
N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9).
N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah's flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22).

L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17).

L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16).

L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7).

L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18).
N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4).

L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11).
N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16).

Of the Flood of Noach's day, there is no question.

Of this nonsense of there being a "pre-Adamic flood," THAT is a MANUFACTURED LIE you've been fed.

Obviously, most of this comes from Jeremiah 4:23-26 with portions from other passages, such as Psalm 104:7-9 and 2 Peter 3:5-6; so, let's begin by looking at Jeremiah (whose given name is "Yirm-Yaahuw," which means "YAH will rise," btw):

Look at the WHOLE chapter; read it in its context:

Jeremiah 4:1-31
1 If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove.
2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.
3 For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.
4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
5 Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land (Hebrew: baa'aarets = "in-the-Land"): cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defenced cities.
6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.
7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles (the Babylonians) is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.
8 For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the Lord is not turned back from us.
9 And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the LORD, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder.
10 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.
11 At that time shall it be said to this people and to Jerusalem, A dry wind of the high places in the wilderness toward the daughter of my people, not to fan, nor to cleanse,
12 Even a full wind from those places shall come unto me: now also will I give sentence against them.
13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.
14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?
15 For a voice declareth from Dan, and publisheth affliction from mount Ephraim.
16 Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah.
17 As keepers of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against me, saith the LORD.
18 Thy way and thy doings have procured these things unto thee; this is thy wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reacheth unto thine heart.
19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.
20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.
21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?
22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
23 I beheld the earth (Hebrew: haa'aarets = "the-Land"), and, lo, it was without form (Hebrew: tohuw = "a-desolation"), and void (Hebrew: vaaVohuw = "and-empty"); and the heavens (Hebrew: hashaamayim = the-skies), and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens (Hebrew: hashaamayim = of-the-skies) were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place (the fruitful field) was a wilderness (a waste), and all the cities thereof (of it, namely, of the Land) were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end (an annihilation).
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens (Hebrew: hashaamayim = "the skies") above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.
30 And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.
31 For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.
KJV

It's merely an unfortunate translation of fairly common Hebrew words, used in the same order in two different passages and that have been translated as basically the same thing, that have caused this poor interpretation of this passage. You've equated this "tohuw vaaVohuw" to be the same as the "tohuw vaaVohuw" of Genesis 1:2.

The problem within Genesis 1:1-2 is again found in an English translation. The NIV says this:

Genesis 1:1-2
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was (or possibly became) formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
NIV, the portion in parentheses is found in a footnote

First, one should understand that Hebrew prose will commonly begin with a synopsis of what is to follow. Genesis 1:1 is such a synopsis; it summarizes what is to follow, because "the heavens" (Hebrew: hashaamayim = "the-skies") were created and named in verses 6-8 below, and "the earth" (Hebrew: haa'aarets = "the-earth/ground/land") was created and named in verses 9-10 below.

Second, while the words "formless and empty" (NIV) or "without form and void" (KJV) do indeed come from the Hebrew words: "tohuw vaaVohuw," they are simply common words in Hebrew and are merely coincidental to Jeremiah 4. There is no link between the two passages! They are in totally separate contexts and are about two entirely different events.

Finally, Psalm 104 and 2 Peter 3 are both about NOACH'S Flood, not something other.

Psalm 104:5-9
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
7 At thy rebuke they (the waters) fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
8 They go up by the mountains (the mountains rose); they go down by the valleys (the valleys sunk) unto the place which thou hast founded for them.
9 Thou hast set a bound that they (the waters) may not pass over; that they (the waters) turn not again to cover the earth (the formation of the continental shelves).
KJV

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (Greek: hoi ouranoi = "the skies") were of old, and the earth (Greek: hee gee = "the earth/land/ground") standing out of the water (the land was separated from the seas, the seas remaining below sea level) and in the water (within the waters above the skies or within the waters above the atmosphere):
6 Whereby the world (the world system of people, the culture) that then was, being overflowed with water (the Flood of Noach's day), perished:
7 But the heavens (Greek: hoi ouranoi = "the skies") and the earth (Greek: hee gee = the earth/land/ground), which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens (Greek: ouranous = "for-skies") and a new earth (Greek: geen kaineen = "for-an-earth new"), wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

So, there's nothing within these verses to suggest anything more than the ONE global Flood.

You may accept this or reject it; it's your choice; however, I hope and pray that you will see the sense in this explanation. It IS the Hebrew grammatical truth.

[Zach]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

So, there's nothing within these verses to suggest anything more than the ONE global Flood.

Gen 1:2
"The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the [fn]surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters."

Gen 1:9

"Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so."

 

 

[HAZARD]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, HAZARD.

No, it's not just my "opinion."

First, and let's be completely clear about this, I do NOT "think God's Word is poppycock"; I DO, however, believe that your INTERPRETATION of God's Word CERTAINLY IS POPPYCOCK! (Wow! I haven't heard this ... rot ... since I was in high school back in the mid 70's! So, there's still some of you guys out there, huh? Don't worry; this theory can be remedied.)

Of the Flood of Noach's day, there is no question.

Of this nonsense of there being a "pre-Adamic flood," THAT is a MANUFACTURED LIE you've been fed.

Obviously, most of this comes from Jeremiah 4:23-26 with portions from other passages, such as Psalm 104:7-9 and 2 Peter 3:5-6; so, let's begin by looking at Jeremiah (whose given name is "Yirm-Yaahuw," which means "YAH will rise," btw):

Look at the WHOLE chapter; read it in its context:

Jeremiah 4:1-31
1 If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove.
2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.
3 For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.
4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
5 Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land (Hebrew: baa'aarets = "in-the-Land"): cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defenced cities.
6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.
7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles (the Babylonians) is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.
8 For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the Lord is not turned back from us.
9 And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the LORD, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder.
10 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.
11 At that time shall it be said to this people and to Jerusalem, A dry wind of the high places in the wilderness toward the daughter of my people, not to fan, nor to cleanse,
12 Even a full wind from those places shall come unto me: now also will I give sentence against them.
13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.
14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?
15 For a voice declareth from Dan, and publisheth affliction from mount Ephraim.
16 Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah.
17 As keepers of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against me, saith the LORD.
18 Thy way and thy doings have procured these things unto thee; this is thy wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reacheth unto thine heart.
19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.
20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.
21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?
22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
23 I beheld the earth (Hebrew: haa'aarets = "the-Land"), and, lo, it was without form (Hebrew: tohuw = "a-desolation"), and void (Hebrew: vaaVohuw = "and-empty"); and the heavens (Hebrew: hashaamayim = the-skies), and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens (Hebrew: hashaamayim = of-the-skies) were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place (the fruitful field) was a wilderness (a waste), and all the cities thereof (of it, namely, of the Land) were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end (an annihilation).
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens (Hebrew: hashaamayim = "the skies") above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.
30 And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.
31 For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.
KJV

It's merely an unfortunate translation of fairly common Hebrew words, used in the same order in two different passages and that have been translated as basically the same thing, that have caused this poor interpretation of this passage. You've equated this "tohuw vaaVohuw" to be the same as the "tohuw vaaVohuw" of Genesis 1:2.

The problem within Genesis 1:1-2 is again found in an English translation. The NIV says this:

Genesis 1:1-2
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was (or possibly became) formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
NIV, the portion in parentheses is found in a footnote

First, one should understand that Hebrew prose will commonly begin with a synopsis of what is to follow. Genesis 1:1 is such a synopsis; it summarizes what is to follow, because "the heavens" (Hebrew: hashaamayim = "the-skies") were created and named in verses 6-8 below, and "the earth" (Hebrew: haa'aarets = "the-earth/ground/land") was created and named in verses 9-10 below.

Second, while the words "formless and empty" (NIV) or "without form and void" (KJV) do indeed come from the Hebrew words: "tohuw vaaVohuw," they are simply common words in Hebrew and are merely coincidental to Jeremiah 4. There is no link between the two passages! They are in totally separate contexts and are about two entirely different events.

Finally, Psalm 104 and 2 Peter 3 are both about NOACH'S Flood, not something other.

Psalm 104:5-9
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
7 At thy rebuke they (the waters) fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
8 They go up by the mountains (the mountains rose); they go down by the valleys (the valleys sunk) unto the place which thou hast founded for them.
9 Thou hast set a bound that they (the waters) may not pass over; that they (the waters) turn not again to cover the earth (the formation of the continental shelves).
KJV

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (Greek: hoi ouranoi = "the skies") were of old, and the earth (Greek: hee gee = "the earth/land/ground") standing out of the water (the land was separated from the seas, the seas remaining below sea level) and in the water (within the waters above the skies or within the waters above the atmosphere):
6 Whereby the world (the world system of people, the culture) that then was, being overflowed with water (the Flood of Noach's day), perished:
7 But the heavens (Greek: hoi ouranoi = "the skies") and the earth (Greek: hee gee = the earth/land/ground), which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens (Greek: ouranous = "for-skies") and a new earth (Greek: geen kaineen = "for-an-earth new"), wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

So, there's nothing within these verses to suggest anything more than the ONE global Flood.

You may accept this or reject it; it's your choice; however, I hope and pray that you will see the sense in this explanation. It IS the Hebrew grammatical truth.

Explain these Scriptural differences!

There were two great floods on the Earth. The first where God destroyed His original creation because of Lucifers rebellion, and the second, Noah's flood because of mans rebellion.

Lucifers flood, everything was destroyed, all life, no light, the earth made empty and void.

Noah's flood, all life was not destroyed. Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives were left alive, plus all animals and the sun and moon was not prevented from giving light.

Here are all the Scriptures proving this occurred, read them for yourself then believe them or not??

Noahs flood which I will post as . 'N.F.' Lucifers flood, L.F.

L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23).
N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16).

L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22)

L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22).

L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5).
N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22).

L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20).

L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10).
N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7).
N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9).
N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah's flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22).

L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17).

L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16).

L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7).

L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18).
N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4).

L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11).
N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16).

The original creations of God include the heavens and the Earth and all things therein as first brought into being. This period is summed up in Gen. 1:1. thus: "In the beginning God created the heaven [Hebrew, heavens] and the earth." This refers to the dateless past, and takes in only a part of the creative ages, that is, from the beginning of creation until the chaotic period of Gen. 1:2 when the Earth and its first inhabitants were destroyed by the first flood. Notice during Noahs flood not all inhabitants , vegetation, animals, day, night were destroyed.

There are many other passages in Scripture that refer to that period (Job. 38; Ps. 8:3-8; 19:1-6; Prov. 8:22-31; John 1:3,10; Acts 17:24-26; Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-12; 11:3; Rev. 4:11).

I'll post more tomorrow, I have to leave.

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, Zach said:

Gen 1:2
"The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the [fn]surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters."

Gen 1:9
"Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so."

Shalom, Zach.

LOL! Okay, good observation! So, the earth appeared out of the water that was gathered together into one place in the original Creation. That STILL doesn't give us any credence for a "pre-Adamic flood," because prior to Day 3, there was no "pre-Adamic LAND" to flood! The Bible is COMPLETELY SILENT about such an "event" happening prior to Genesis 1:2.

Instead, what we learn is that there was NO LAND before God started creating this earth's surface, beginning with light on Day 1.