Who is this Jewish Messiah?

[Willa]

God chose Abraham and His descendants from the beginning to bear the Christ to the Jews first and then to the world.  He knew Adam would sin and had prepared a way of salvation to us all.  The Hebrew nation was a chosen people, and will again be restored to its Messiah as the time of the Gentiles is coming to an end.  Jesus is made King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and to Him every knee will bow in heaven and on earth, and every tongue will confess Jesus as Lord to the glory of God the Father.

[Ezra]

20 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

There are plenty of places in Scripture where Jesus is simply referred to as "Jesus Christ."

That's not the point we are trying to establish.  

The issue here is whether Jesus the Messiah is sufficient in light of the fact that the Bible calls Him "the Lord Jesus Christ" after His resurrection, and the emphasis on His Lordship is far greater than His Messiahship.  

The Messianic Jews (for example) have reverted to "Yeshua ha Mashiach" and forgotten all about "the LORD Jesus Christ".  But you will notice that whenever Paul opens his epistles he emphasizes "grace and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ".

Yet the majority of preachers, and evangelical and fundamentalist Christ simply refer to Him as "Jesus".  That's the point I am trying to make.  If God insists on calling His Son "the Lord Jesus Christ" (and there are sound reasons for that), then we do not have the liberty to avoid that designation. It is precisely because Jesus is NOT Lord in many churches that they adopt all kinds of strange doctrines and practices.

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, Ezra said:

That's not the point we are trying to establish.  

The issue here is whether Jesus the Messiah is sufficient in light of the fact that the Bible calls Him "the Lord Jesus Christ" after His resurrection, and the emphasis on His Lordship is far greater than His Messiahship.  

No, no one is saying that "Messiah is sufficient, as if that is all we need to call Him.   The Bible uses a multitude of references to Jesus, post resurrection, that do not include the title, "Lord" in those references.  They're not leaving anything out.     And I don't see that the Bible places a greater emphasis on his Lordship than His Messiahship.  In Scripture they are both just as important.

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The Messianic Jews (for example) have reverted to "Yeshua ha Mashiach" and forgotten all about "the LORD Jesus Christ".  But You will notice that whenever Paul opens his epistles he emphasizes "grace and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ".

Yes and as I demonstrated in the above list of passages, Paul ALSO referred to Jesus as Christ and Messiah and omitted the word "Lord" a multitude of times, which makes your argument invalid.   If Jesus was referred by by that three-word designation each and every time in the Bible, you would have a valid point.  But, that is simply not the case.

Quote

Yet the majority of preachers, and evangelical and fundamentalist Christ simply refer to Him as "Jesus".  That's the point I am trying to make.  If God insists on calling His Son "the Lord Jesus Christ" (and there are sound reasons for that), then we do not have the liberty to avoid that designation. It is precisely because Jesus is NOT Lord in many churches that they adopt all kinds of strange doctrines and practices.

Again, it is really a problem you are manufacturing.  Just calling Jesus doesn't diminish His Lordship just because you claim it does.   You are again, manufacturing a problem and assigning values to others that are simply not true.   The Bible does not use that three-word designation 100% of the time, and we don't have to, either.

[JohnD]

Uh, I must side with Shiloh on this friends. Lord and Christ are in Hebrew YHVH and Messiah.

This was my point in the OP to draw attention to the fact that our God is a Hebrew God and his Son is the Jewish Messiah.

And we who follow him (now watch those who agreed with me up to this point turn and attack) are... spiritually...

Ephesians 2:11–22 (AV)
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

[hmbld]

30 minutes ago, JohnD said:

And we who follow him (now watch those who agreed with me up to this point turn and attack) are... spiritually...

Ephesians 2:11–22 (AV)
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
 

vs.18 states "both"  The enmity between born again jews and born again gentiles is eradicated, yet that does not make me Jewish.  I am adopted in, fellowcitizen with the saints.

[Guest shiloh357]

6 hours ago, JohnD said:

And we who follow him (now watch those who agreed with me up to this point turn and attack) are... spiritually...

Ephesians 2:11–22 (AV)
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

It doesn't say that Gentile believers are spiritually Jewish.   You are going beyond the text and saying that isn't an attack.   All the text states is that Gentiles who were far off and estranged from the covenants of promise are now brought near and are allowed to participate in those Covenants.

To make Gentile believers spiritually Jewish actually defeats what Paul is trying to bring out.   The beauty of the New Covenant isn't that Gentiles are spiritual Jews.   It is the message that Gentiles are not unclean in God's eyes and can be fully participants in the New Covenant and its benefits AS Gentiles.  It was the mystery that God gave to the Apostles that was hidden in Him until that time.

Its Jews and Gentiles as one new man.   Paul never spiritualizes the words "Jew" or "Israel"  to refer to Gentile believers.   That gets written into proof-texts, but is nowhere found in the Bible.   Jesus didn't die to make anyone "Jewish"  spiritually, or otherwise.

[RustyAngeL]

Jesus Christ,

King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  Savior and Lord of my life, yesterday, today and forever.

[JohnD]

Galatians 4 (AV)
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
12 Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all.
13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.
16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
17 They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.
18 But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.
19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

4 hours ago, JohnD said:

Galatians 4 (AV)
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
12 Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all.
13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.
16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
17 They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.
18 But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.
19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

 

That passage has nothing to do with being "spiritually Jewish."    It is a contrast between seeking salvation/justification through the law, or accepting salvation/justification as the free gift of God's grace.   Hagar represents the Old Covenant and corresponds to earthly Jerusalem.   Sarah represents the New Covenant, which is the covenant of promise and corresponds to the New Jerusalem on high.   So, the Jerusalem on high represents those who have trusted in Jesus for salvation and are full participants in the covenants of promise even without having one drop of Jewish blood and who are not adherents to the Jewish religion.

It is important when dealing analogies like the one above that we do not push the analogy beyond what the author was intending it to convey.  Paul is dealing with a congregation that had been deceived into thinking that they had to convert to the earthly Jewish religion in addition to faith in Jesus in order to enter the Kingdom of God.  It was the Judaizing heresy that they deliberated over in the first Jerusalem Council in Acts 15.

It's important to pay attention to the overall context of the book of Galatians and problems that Paul had with that congregation.

[JohnD]

Okay here's some more analogy:

Romans 9:1–6 (AV)
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Reminding ourselves of the unification as a people in Galatians 4 and the tearing down of division in Ephesians 2 making the two one. 

How? Metaphorically? Just so the Gentile dogs can feel good about themselves for no longer being unclean?

Galatians 3:24–28 (AV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.