Who is this Jewish Messiah?

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, JohnD said:

Okay here's some more analogy:

Romans 9:1–6 (AV)
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

The issue Paul is raising here is very similar to what was dealt with in Romans 2: 28-29, but is now being dealt with in a more thorough, corporate  manner in Romans 9:6.

In Romans 2:28-29, Paul explained what it means to be a Jew. Paul was not redefining a "Jew" to mean anyone who is born again. The context in which vv. 28 and 29 will not allow for that understanding. Paul was making a didactic point utilizing an imaginary Jewish interlocutor who felt he pedigree offered him some sort of advantage.  Paul's point was that the Gentiles were not necessarily at a disadvantage, and that Jewish boasting in  Torah observance was worthless if their hearts were not right before God.  The "true Jew"  is a Jew whose life is a praise to the Lord.  A "true Jew" is not a believing Gentile.

Paul is now applying the same principle in a corporate manner.  Roman 2 pertained to Gentile vs. Jew.  Romans 9-11 pertains to Israel vs. the Church.

When Paul says they are not all Israel who are of Israel, he means to be understood that the true “Israelites” are ethnic Jews who are faithful to God and to the Torah and this would include all faithful Jewish people who are believers in the Messiah.   It has nothing  to do with Gentiles at that point in his argument. 

 

 

 

[Zach]

To proclaim Yeshua as Messiah doesn't mean much more than 'annoited' until further meaning is poured into the word. In order to apply the word "Saviour" it must be defined; saved from what? Jews and Christians will give you differing answers to such a question, especially when asked in context of Messiah. 

Yeshua taught Torah, plain and simple, Paul on the other hand dealt with issues of Rabbinic Judaism, terribly misunderstood by Gentile Christians to be the same as Torah, yet still took the Gospel to the world. But to get to the OP's question:  "Was it just a vehicle of convenience Jesus was born Jewish?"; I'd say absolutely not! Since there is a predicted identifiable Messianic line tracing back to Abraham, not through Ishmael but through Isaac, through David, through Solomon, Yeshua had to be born Jewish to affirm and witness to the world the true Nature of God who keeps His promises throughout generations. 

However, if you not mind me saying; a better question might be: 'Was it just a matter of convenience Jesus was born Torah Observant?'

Now there's a can of worms needing to be opened!

Edited December 30, 2016 by Zach

[Zach]

On December 28, 2016 at 4:16 AM, shiloh357 said:

Paul's point was that the Gentiles were not necessarily at a disadvantage, and that Jewish boasting in  Torah observance was worthless if their hearts were not right before God.

I think a important distinction needs to be made here to avoid confusion. Paul in first century Jewish context never degraded "written" Torah Observance but degraded adherence to "oral" Torah Observance. It was upon obedience to the Tradition of the Elders which many Jews put their faith which Paul continually fought against.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Zach said:

I think a important distinction needs to be made here to avoid confusion. Paul in first century Jewish context never degraded "written" Torah Observance but degraded adherence to "oral" Torah Observance. It was upon obedience to the Tradition of the Elders which many Jews put their faith which Paul continually fought against.

I don't think he ever degraded the written Torah.  I am not sure he ever degraded the Oral Torah, either.  But as you have said, it was their faith in their own obedience to tradition that was the problem.   Paul never chided the traditions, that I am aware of, only a misguided, misplaced faith in them. 

[Zach]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

I don't think he ever degraded the written Torah.  I am not sure he ever degraded the Oral Torah, either.  But as you have said, it was their faith in their own obedience to tradition that was the problem.   Paul never chided the traditions, that I am aware of, only a misguided, misplaced faith in them. 

Glad to meet you shiloh357, 

When the rich young ruler inquired of Yeshua what was needed to enter eternal life, Yeshua responded; "Keep the commandments...." Therefore to say Paul taught Torah observance as being of no value in attaining eternal life, would put Paul and Yeshua at odds. Therefore it is my contention Paul's writings require readers with a higher Jewish cultural context thereby understanding when Paul taught adherence to the Law (Torah) was of no value in attaining eternal life his meaning was was the "Oral" Torah, the Traditions of the Elders, later codified in the Mishnah and Germara.

Just my opinion, of course if I didn't think it was right, I'd change it. Lol!

Edited December 30, 2016 by Zach

[Guest shiloh357]

4 minutes ago, Zach said:

Glad to meet you shiloh357, 

When the rich young ruler inquired of Yeshua what was needed to enter eternal life, Yeshua responded; "Keep the commandments...." Therefore to say Paul taught Torah observance as being of no value in attaining eternal life, would put Paul and Yeshua at odds. Therefore it is my contention Paul's writings require readers with a higher Jewish cultural context thereby understanding when Paul taught adherence to the Law (Torah) was of no value in attaining eternal life his meaning was was the "Oral" Torah, the Traditions of the Elders, later codified in the Mishnah and Germara.

Just my opinion, of course if I didn't think it was right, I'd change it. Lol!

Just seeking clarification...   Do you view Torah observance as a necessity for salvation?  I just want to make sure I am not misunderstanding you.

[Zach]

35 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Just seeking clarification...   Do you view Torah observance as a necessity for salvation?  I just want to make sure I am not misunderstanding you.

Matthew 5:19
“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Therefore, no not absolutely necessary but definitely preferable unless one's goal is to be "least in the kingdom of heaven".

[Ezra]

35 minutes ago, Zach said:

When the rich young ruler inquired of Yeshua what was needed to enter eternal life, Yeshua responded; "Keep the commandments....

That certainly did not mean that any sinner could earn eternal life by keeping the commandments. That was a test to see whether this man would be honest with himself, and say "Lord be merciful to me, a sinner".  The correct response from the rich young ruler should have been "I have NOT kept the commandments", since he had broken at least one of the first four commandments (which were not even mentioned by Christ). Also, he had failed to see that the Lord Jesus Christ was God, by calling Him "good Master (Teacher)".

42 minutes ago, Zach said:

Therefore it is my contention Paul's writings require readers with a higher Jewish cultural context thereby understanding when Paul taught adherence to the Law (Torah) was of no value in attaining eternal life his meaning was was the "Oral" Torah, the Traditions of the Elders, later codified in the Mishnah and Germara.

Your contention is incorrect.  Paul never referred to the "oral" traditions but to the Torah itself (or the entire Old Testament). Furthermore, he was writing to both Jews and Gentiles, not just Jews.

45 minutes ago, Zach said:

Therefore to say Paul taught Torah observance as being of no value in attaining eternal life, would put Paul and Yeshua at odds.

Neither Paul nor Christ taught that Torah observance was of any value "in attaining eternal life".  As Scripture makes it quite clear, before the Torah came into existence, Abraham BELIEVED GOD and it was counted to him for righteousness.  That was the basis of justification by grace through faith ever since the time of Abel.  And that is what the New Testament teaches.

Paul also makes it quite clear that the Law was given to show sinners the sinfulness of sin, and that there is none righteous, no not one.

It is evident from your posts that you do NOT really believe the Bible, which teaches that sinners are justified by grace through faith, and are saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, not through any works of righteousness which they have done. Readers should know that you are promoting a false Gospel.

[Zach]

26 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Neither Paul nor Christ taught that Torah observance was of any value "in attaining eternal life".  As Scripture makes it quite clear, before the Torah came into existence, Abraham BELIEVED GOD and it was counted to him for righteousness.  That was the basis of justification by grace through faith ever since the time of Abel.  And that is what the New Testament teaches.

Paul also makes it quite clear that the Law was given to show sinners the sinfulness of sin, and that there is none righteous, no not one.

It is evident from your posts that you do NOT really believe the Bible, which teaches that sinners are justified by grace through faith, and are saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, not through any works of righteousness which they have done. Readers should know that you are promoting a false Gospel.

Ezra, thanks for the warm (hot) welcome. Lol! No worries.

You write: 

"That was a test to see whether this man would be honest with himself, and say "Lord be merciful to me, a sinner".  The correct response from the rich young ruler should have been "I have NOT kept the commandments", since he had broken at least one of the first four commandments (which were not even mentioned by Christ). Also, he had failed to see that the Lord Jesus Christ was God, by calling Him "good Master (Teacher)"."

It is you who GREATLY interpolate into the text concerning the rich young ruler, not I. But you have to so it matches your doctrine. This is because your particular brand of Oral Torah (systematic theology) supersedes the plain words of the text.

As for my position on Abraham/Faith/Grace, I consider myself in good company:

James 2:22-24
You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

It is evident from your posts you that you do NOT really believe the Bible as written, but rather put your faith in a man made derived doctrine about Yeshua rather than Yeshua's own teachings. If you believed Yeshua's words you'd know there is only one Teacher and therefore interpret Scripture according to his words rather than by the traditions of men.

 

Edited December 30, 2016 by Zach

[Ezra]

56 minutes ago, Zach said:

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Since the Bible cannot contradict itself, then there has to be a proper interpretation of this (which I will not go into).  

The fundamental truth is very, very clear -- NO WORKS CAN SAVE. So kindly read, study, digest, and believe this Scripture (Titus 3:4-7):

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.