Who is this Jewish Messiah?

[Zach]

1 hour ago, Davida said:

 

Works is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in us after we are saved by faith alone. It is the result of being saved , it is the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

"Faith alone"

Faith in what?

A Jew would tell you they do more works than you without being saved or the Holy Spirit. How would you answer?

[Zach]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us

Ezra,

All this is simply saying is God didn't save us because we were already good, rather because He is merciful. It really has little to do with the Faith/Works issue. I'm not saying a person can be saved apart from faith. What I am saying is a person CAN'T be saved apart from works. Scripture is clear, if you don't have works, you don't have faith.

As for verse 7 ~ "That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

I prefer this translation:

"He did it so that by his grace we might come to be considered righteous by God and become heirs with the certain hope of eternal life"

Edited December 31, 2016 by Zach

[Guest shiloh357]

7 minutes ago, Zach said:

Ezra,

All this is simply saying is God didn't save us because we were already good, rather because He is merciful. It really has little to do with the Faith/Works issue. I'm not saying a person can be saved apart from faith. What I am saying is a person CAN'T be saved apart from works. Scripture is clear, if you don't have works, you don't have faith.

As for verse 7 ~ "That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

I prefer this translation:

"He did it so that by his grace we might come to be considered righteous by God and become heirs with the certain hope of eternal life"

I am sorry Zach, but you are completely wrong.

We are saved by grace through faith, not by works (Eph. 2: 8,9).  We are saved by faith alone in Christ alone.   Our works are the product of our salvation, not the means by which we are saved.    I am sorry, but you are promoting a false gospel, and not the Gospel of the power of God unto salvation (Rom. 1:16).

[Zach]

10 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

I am sorry Zach, but you are completely wrong.

We are saved by grace through faith, not by works (Eph. 2: 8,9).  We are saved by faith alone in Christ alone.   Our works are the product of our salvation, not the means by which we are saved.    I am sorry, but you are promoting a false gospel, and not the Gospel of the power of God unto salvation (Rom. 1:16).

shiloh357, I don't think you've thought this through and are relying on fill in the blank answers. (No disrespect intended)

We are saved through believing in God's unmerited favor towards us. However if works do not follow, if you do not respond, you haven't really believed and fool yourself. Therefore without works, is to be without faith. To be without faith is to not appropriate God's grace. To not appropriate God's grace is to not be saved.

It would appear John and I agree, making you the odd man out (1 John 3)

"And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure....
....No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
the one who practices sin is of the devil;....
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."
 

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, Zach said:

shiloh357, I don't think you've thought this through and are relying on fill in the blank answers. (No disrespect intended)

We are saved through believing in God's unmerited favor towards us. However if works do not follow, if you do not respond, you haven't really believed and fool yourself. Therefore without works, is to be without faith. To be without faith is to not appropriate God's grace. To not appropriate God's grace is to not be saved.

It would appear John and I agree, making you the odd man out (1 John 3)

"And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure....
....No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
the one who practices sin is of the devil;....
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."
 

I agree that works follow faith.  No problem there.  And I agree that a person who bears no fruit can't really say they're saved, as Christians always bear fruit.  But that does not mean that works play a part in salvation itself.   They are the indicator of salvation, not a means of acquiring salvation.   Is that what you're saying?

[Zach]

2 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

I agree that works follow faith.  No problem there.  And I agree that a person who bears no fruit can't really say they're saved, as Christians always bear fruit.  But that does not mean that works play a part in salvation itself.   They are the indicator of salvation, not a means of acquiring salvation.   Is that what you're saying?

No, I dont believe works are an indicator of salvation, no one knows the motives of a mans heart except God. Even the man himself could be mistaken. I don't believe we can point to another and declare them saved or unsaved this is God's territory.

I could easily argue having Faith is a Work. To which you'd respond, we can't have faith without the Holy Spirit first working in us. I'd agree, but point out we still need to decide -- which is a Work. If you believe you've no choice in the matter, you've made God into a monster who creates some just to send to hell.

Let's get back to basics; The God of Israel has reached out first to Judah, then to the lost tribes and Gentiles. They were all pretty much lost. Because of who God is, because of His Nature, His compassion He has called us back into a covenant relationship with Him offering us forgiveness and salvation. But if you don't keep the covenant why do you think you'll fair any better than the Jews when they didn't keep their covenant? 

Thinking that just making a verbal confession; 'Jesus died for my sins', 'I have faith',  'God's instructions are nailed to the cross' is going to save you, has to be the biggest lie ever perpetrated on the Church. 

[Guest shiloh357]

7 minutes ago, Zach said:

No, I dont believe works are an indicator of salvation, no one knows the motives of a mans heart except God.

If a Christian's works and profession agree, then yes works are an indicator of salvation.

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Even the man himself could be mistaken. I don't believe we can point to another and declare them saved or unsaved this is God's territory.

If a person's life and profession of faith do not agree, if he professes faith, but lives the opposite, we can be fairly certain his profession is false and he is not a believer.  I and II John were both written in part, to help recognize true believers from false believers.

 

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I could easily argue having Faith is a Work. To which you'd respond, we can't have faith without the Holy Spirit first working in us. I'd agree, but point out we still need to decide -- which is a Work. If you believe you've no choice in the matter, you've made God into a monster who creates some just to send to hell.

I would not argue that at all, as I am not a Calvinist.

 

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Let's get back to basics; The God of Israel has reached out first to Judah, then to the lost tribes and Gentiles. They were all pretty much lost. Because of who God is, because of His Nature, His compassion He has called us back into a covenant relationship with Him offering us forgiveness and salvation. But if you don't keep the covenant why do you think you'll fair any better than the Jews when they didn't keep their covenant? 

So works maintain our salvation.  We have to keep our salved by keeping a covenant?   The Bible doesn't teach that, at all.  The New Covenant isn't between man and God, but between the Father and Jesus.  We are beneficiaries, they are the guarantors.

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Thinking that just making a verbal confession; 'Jesus died for my sins', 'I have faith',  'God's instructions are nailed to the cross' is going to save you, has to be the biggest lie ever perpetrated on the Church. 

I don't think anyone believes that.  I think that is caricature of what we actually believe.  We believe that salvation is by grace through faith alone in Jesus alone and not by works.   We believe that genuine faith in Christ will produce a life that bear's God's fruit as evidence of our salvation.  

[Zach]

7 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

So works maintain our salvation.  We have to keep our salved by keeping a covenant?   The Bible doesn't teach that, at all.  The New Covenant isn't between man and God, but between the Father and Jesus.  We are beneficiaries, they are the guarantors.

 shilo357, what is the all consuming focus on "salvation"? Aren't we supposed to Love God with all our Heart, Mind and Soul and Love our fellow man regardless of wht we get out of it?  Everything is so convuluted nowadays, right is wrong and wrong is right. If someone keeps the instructions (Torah) of God and teaches others they are accused of teaching another Gospel, teaching Heresy and persecuted by the Church for living the religion of Yeshua rather than a religion about Yeshua. 

Go figure. The prophets said this day would come. 

[SisterActs2]

Hi Zach

I believe Ephesians 2:8,9.  "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."  The works follow salvation.  I don't think making a decision for Christ could be called a "work".  It is a decision.  It is a choice.  Works are things that we do that mark us as Christians.  They are the fruit of being a Christian.

 

[Zach]

4 hours ago, Davida said:

Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Davida, you've quoted a verse and are making it stand on its own out of the overall context of Galatians, thereby changing its meaning to suit your doctrine. In your selected verse is mentioned one phrase more than anything else, being used 3 times in one verse; "works of the law". I assume you think this means Torah or the Old Testament/Tanach? It can't mean that and be in agreement with the overall teaching of the Bible (unless you solely stick to misinterpretations of Paul's writings). Paul is saying a man is not justified through keeping Halacha; takanot and ma'asim. This was the big argument in Galatia; the authority of Oral Torah of the Phraisees. Do you seriously think they were arguing over the Ten Commandments?

I've already addressed the Abraham quote a few posts up. But allow me to add; there are two NT verses which address the same OT verse about Abraham. Why is everyone so keen to quote the man who never met Yeshua rather than Yeshua's own brother who grew up with him and was the Jerusalem Church leader?

If one can't build their case without Paul, then the doctrine they espouse is not built on Biblical teachings and is by definition a private interpretation.