The Holy Trinity?

[thilipsis]

51 minutes ago, Brittany said:

What the Bible really means is debatable. Here are the main reasons I doubt the personality of the Holy Spirit;

1) On multiple occasions, when Jesus Christ and God the Father are mentioned as authoritative figures (as we see in the epistles and other places such as when Paul spoke of Christ sitting on the right hand of God the Father in Colossians 3:1, and the Holy Spirit isn't mentioned, and also when Stephen looked into heaven in Acts 7:55 and saw Jesus standing next to the Father, but the Holy Spirit is only mentioned as the instrument by which Stephen saw it), the Holy Spirit is omitted. If the Holy Spirit were a co-equal Person of the Holy Trinity, wouldn't he be there with the other two Persons?

2) Since we are told to worship God, and there are verses specifically telling us to worship the Father and the Son, why aren't there any verses telling us to worship the Holy Spirit?

Of course, there are verses which seem to point to a personality. And I may be a little stumped on those. But I suppose a possible explanation would be that God the Father and Jesus Christ are spirits, they are made up of a substance "Spirit". They are both holy, so they are Holy Spirits. So perhaps when the Bible speaks of the Spirit doing things, it is actually either Christ or God the Father that are actually doing the things. But, this is only speculation and I'm not trying to put this idea forth as truth. I don't know if it holds up Scripturally yet.

All I can tell you is what I have come to discern as the distinction of the Holy Spirit. It's something you have to develop over time, which is the best way I can describe it:

Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest. (Heb. 3: 7-11)

My problem was the incarnation, God becoming man was too much for me. Over time I came to think about the voice of the Holy Spirit as something indicating personality and I can only express this as a personal conviction. I heard his voice so real in the Psalms, distinct and at the same time in harmony with the Father and Son. There is the personal pronoun 'he' which is often cited but for me it was more about something like a sound. The Father is more authoritative, the Son more conciliatory, both saying the same thing but in ways that were discernibly distinctive. The Holy Spirit I have long thought is more personable, I hear it clearly in the Psalms, not so much in the Law. I realize this is my perception in a lot of ways but it's important. You can take the verse a lot of ways I suppose but consider this:

But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions. (Heb. 1:8-9)

The Father says this of the Son, later the Spirit speaks. I don't have a road map here nor I pretend to have the proof text. But what I am seeing is a conversation between the members of the Trinity, sometimes with one another and sometimes concerning you. This is my take on this and I realize we all have things we work out over time.

51 minutes ago, Brittany said:

Do you think you could please explain further?

Sure, at the baptism of Christ the Father is speaking from heaven, Christ is on earth and the Holy Spirit descending like a dove. The Father isn't saying listen to him as you would me, or listen to me period, he is saying you must hear and head the words of my Son. Jesus was all the time saying he did the will of the Father and if he spoke from his authority it meant nothing. So how does that work if God incarnate isn't using the same authority as God speaking from heaven? In John 1:1 where it says the Word was with God and was God it actually means, literally, face to face. You see, for me it came down to the incarnation and the distinction between Father and Son was a very big deal.

The Upper Room Discourse is an important point to consider. Look at the distinction Jesus makes between himself and the Holy Spirit. I didn't write it and I can't tell you what to make of it but it's very clear. Jesus is telling them, I am leaving and the Holy Spirit will come, but I will return. In addition he promised them the Holy Spirit would be with them forever, even though he would soon be leaving.

It's simply not an easy doctrine to wrap your mind around. I can tell you what I think and how I came to believe the way I did but I think it will come down to you doing the work of learning the Scriptures. The Upper Room Discourse is a very key place to start. May God guide you in your understanding and I'm happy to discuss this at any length.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[brakelite]

5 hours ago, Ezra said:

This is purely human logic and has nothing to do with the facts of the case.  Why?  Because Jesus can be ALL of the following at one and the same time (as revealed in Scripture):

1. Jesus is God, and is called Emmanuel (God with us)

2. Jesus is the Word of God

3. Jesus is the Son of God

4. Jesus is the Son of Man

5. Jesus is the firstborn son of Mary

6. Jesus is the great I AM

7. Jesus is the Lamb of God

8. Jesus is the King of kings and Lord of lords

9. "Jesus" means "God is our salvation"

10. Jesus is now "the Lord Jesus Christ".

So to deny all of this is to be presumptuous.

 

He can be a Son of His Father, and NOT a Son of His Father at the same time? Come on Ezra, stop beating about the bush and face the question. Either Jesus is God's Son, or He isn't. Either God is the Father of Jesus, or He isn't. This has nothing to do with human logic...it is all about  believing and accepting what is written, and not going beyond what is revealed. The trinity is going way beyond what is revealed, because it inherently denies the personalities of both Father and Son. And John informs us in no unequivocal terms that to deny the Father and Son, is antichrist.

If you cannot answer these from scripture, then you cannot face John 17:1-3.

[Guest shiloh357]

4 minutes ago, brakelite said:

He can be a Son of His Father, and NOT a Son of His Father at the same time? Come on Ezra, stop beating about the bush and face the question. Either Jesus is God's Son, or He isn't. Either God is the Father of Jesus, or He isn't. This has nothing to do with human logic...it is all about  believing and accepting what is written, and not going beyond what is revealed. The trinity is going way beyond what is revealed, because it inherently denies the personalities of both Father and Son. And John informs us in no unequivocal terms that to deny the Father and Son, is antichrist.

If you cannot answer these from scripture, then you cannot face John 17:1-3.

Jesus became the Son of God at His incarnation.   Jesus was not the Son of God when He preexisted the universe we have today.    The Godhead enjoyed a perfect unity and fellowship according to John 1:1-3.  Jesus is God and Jesus is the Son of God.   God the Father is also God.  

The Trinity does not deny the personalities of the Father and Son.  You simply don't understand the doctrine properly and are trying to criticize something you have not really bothered to study.   You seem to parrot what others have told you, and are trying to condemn the doctrine from a wrong view of it.

[Neighbor]

42 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Jesus became the Son of God at His incarnation.   Jesus was not the Son of God when He preexisted the universe we have today.    The Godhead enjoyed a perfect unity and fellowship according to John 1:1-3.  Jesus is God and Jesus is the Son of God.   God the Father is also God.  

The Trinity does not deny the personalities of the Father and Son.  You simply don't understand the doctrine properly and are trying to criticize something you have not really bothered to study.   You seem to parrot what others have told you, and are trying to condemn the doctrine from a wrong view of it.

Some who study  the issue actually change their opinion and can present reason for having held to both positions, as did this pastor: http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A235/Reexamining-the-Eternal-Sonship-of-Christ excerpt from the link 

" I want to state publicly that I have abandoned the doctrine of "incarnational sonship." Careful study and reflection have brought me to understand that Scripture does indeed present the relationship between God the Father and Christ the Son as an eternal Father-Son relationship. I no longer regard Christ's sonship as a role He assumed in His incarnation."

 

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by Neighbor

[Ezra]

2 hours ago, Brittany said:

"In the name of" is just about the same as "by the authority of". So, when we hear a cop yell to a running criminal, "Stop, in the name of the law!" Is the law a person? Of course not.

More DODGING of the issue.  In the Name of whom?  Are there three Persons mentioned?

Isn't it wonderful when people try to dodge and dodge and dodge?

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, brakelite said:

He can be a Son of His Father, and NOT a Son of His Father at the same time?

More HUMANISTIC REASONING! Dodge, dodge, and dodge again.

Christ can indeed be BOTH God and the Son of God at the same time.  Just don't try your humanistic reasoning to figure that out, since no one can figure it out.  Either believe it, or suffer the consequences of unbelief.

[brakelite]

25 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

If the Holy Spirit is not an impersonal force why are you calling Him an "it?"

Secondly, the Holy Spirit is not Christ.   Jesus said that when He departed He would send us another comforter.  So Jesus sending someone other than Himself.  Secondly, at Jesus' baptism, the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus in bodily form as a dove.  So they cannot be the same person.  Read your Bible.

Yes He is.  Romans 8:9 says He indwells us.

The Holy Spirit is not an invention.    For those of us who love Jesus, we know that He has sent the Holy Spirit to indwell, empower, encourage, instruct and lead us into all truth.

I call the Holy Spirit "it" because the Bible says "the" Holy Spirit. Ephesians 4:30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
1 John 5:6  This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Jesus, being limited for eternity by His human body, is still present in and with us, but how? By His Holy Spirit. When He made the promise of sending another comforter, He meant Himself in another form. Read the context here....

John 14:16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, (the original Comforter was not Jesus, but the Father...'the Father of all comfort'2 Corinthians 1:3  Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort)...that he may abide with you for ever;
17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him (how did the disciples already know this person, and dwell with this person,if it weren't Jesus Himself?); for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 ¶  I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Of course the Holy Spirit dwells within us...but why must this be a third co-equal co-eternal God as described in the 3person/3 God trinity? Why cannot this indwelling Spirit simply be what the Bible, in innumerable places, describes Him to be...the Spirit of Christ?

What is more natural and more wonderful than to acknowledge and accept simple Biblical revelation as fact that it is Jesus Christ Himself, and the Father Himself, who dwell within us, through their shared Spirit?

Romans8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the SPIRIT OF GOD dwell in you. Now if any man have not the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is none of his.
     
    John3:34, 35: For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35: The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

 

The Father gave the Son his Spirit, it’s this Eternal Spirit that doesn’t back off from burdens that encouraged the Son of God to offer himself for us. It’s this Spirit of the Father given to the Son that enabled him to live a life without spot and every believer can possess this eternal Spirit of the Father if they submit to Him and His Son.

John 14:23  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

 

[brakelite]

2 hours ago, Ezra said:

More HUMANISTIC REASONING! Dodge, dodge, and dodge again.

Christ can indeed be BOTH God and the Son of God at the same time.  Just don't try your humanistic reasoning to figure that out, since no one can figure it out.  Either believe it, or suffer the consequences of unbelief.

So in connection with your statement quoted, please explain 1 Cor. 8:6  But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Face the fact Ezra that in your continual upholding of the co-equal co-eternal relationship of the trinity, it is a denial of the Father and Son. John 3:16,17 becomes a nonsense. Who did the Father really send to die on our behalf? Can you answer this? Can you answer Jesus' question to Peter, "who do you say that I am?"

Is Jesus a true Son, or isn't He?  Real, or metaphorical? Literal, or simply a role they play?  I ask this because the trinity and a literal Father/Son concept must be mutually exclusive. To believe in a literal Father/Son one MUST reject the trinity as taught in the creeds. Period. Like I said, this is not about human reasoning. It is about accepting or rejecting revelation. I admit, there are aspects to God we will never in this life figure out...but what He has revealed, throughout the NT and in a couple of places in the OT, is that the Godhead is made up of a Father (described as God in 1 Cor. 8:6), and His Son, (described as the Lord in the same passage). Two separate individual beings who both share the same eternal Holy Spirit, and who are willing to share that same Spirit with us. Now this is not a denial of the deity or divinity of Jesus. But if we accept the Son-ship of Christ, which the Bible testifies to throughout, it is and must be a denial of His having been in existence for as long as His Father, and there is nothing in scripture, anywhere, that says different. In all other things, Jesus is as much God as His Father, but by inheritance.
 

[Guest shiloh357]

4 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Some who study  the issue actually change their opinion and can present reason for having held to both positions, as did this pastor: http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A235/Reexamining-the-Eternal-Sonship-of-Christ excerpt from the link 

" I want to state publicly that I have abandoned the doctrine of "incarnational sonship." Careful study and reflection have brought me to understand that Scripture does indeed present the relationship between God the Father and Christ the Son as an eternal Father-Son relationship. I no longer regard Christ's sonship as a role He assumed in His incarnation."

 

 

So what?   I know what I believe and why and it is based on study of Scripture. McArthur has a lot of other problems, theologically and I can post theologians who see Jesus' Sonship as originating with His incarnation, which is what the Bible teaches.

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, brakelite said:

I call the Holy Spirit "it" because the Bible says "the" Holy Spirit.

The preposition "the" doesn't make the Holy Spirit an "it."  The Holy Spirit is referred to as "He" hundreds of times in the Bible.   I will take that over your convoluted grammatical nonsense.

 

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Jesus, being limited for eternity by His human body, is still present in and with us, but how? By His Holy Spirit. When He made the promise of sending another comforter, He meant Himself in another form. Read the context here....

John 14:16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, (the original Comforter was not Jesus, but the Father...'the Father of all comfort'2 Corinthians 1:3  Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort)...that he may abide with you for ever;
17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him (how did the disciples already know this person, and dwell with this person,if it weren't Jesus Himself?); for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 ¶  I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

 

Yeah, that doesn't mean that they are one and the same.   Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God.  There is a relationship between them and defies human explanation.  They are one but separate.   Jesus lives in us in the Person of the Holy Spirit.   Jesus is also in Heaven functioning as our High Priest and is there making intercession for us.   So two Persons of the Godhead who are one are also separate Persons, one on earth and one in Heaven, yet both are with us.    It is not something that we have a point of reference for.  It doesn't make sense in our level of reality, but it doesn't have to make sense.

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Of course the Holy Spirit dwells within us...but why must this be a third co-equal co-eternal God as described in the 3person/3 God trinity?

Because that's what the Bible teaches, like it or not.   I will go with the Bible.  Sometimes that's the only answer we can give.  

 

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Why cannot this indwelling Spirit simply be what the Bible, in innumerable places, describes Him to be...the Spirit of Christ?

It is, but what you seem to be unable to grasp is that "Spirit of Christ" is a name for the Person of the Holy Spirit.  Each member of the the Godhead goes by more than one title.  "Spirit of Christ" is not referring to the Person of Jesus Christ whenever it is used.  A better and more skilled exegesis of Scripture would help you see that.

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What is more natural and more wonderful than to acknowledge and accept simple Biblical revelation as fact that it is Jesus Christ Himself, and the Father Himself, who dwell within us, through their shared Spirit?

I am not denying that.  What I am denying is the unbiblical claim that the Holy Spirit is Jesus.  You simply have no evidence beyond the futile, fleshly reasoning inside your mind to rely on for such a claim.

 

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Romans8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the SPIRIT OF GOD dwell in you. Now if any man have not the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is none of his.

Spirit of God and Spirit of Christ are two different titles for the Holy Spirit.  He is also called the Spirit of Truth, and Eternal Spirit.
     
  

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The Father gave the Son his Spirit, it’s this Eternal Spirit that doesn’t back off from burdens that encouraged the Son of God to offer himself for us. It’s this Spirit of the Father given to the Son that enabled him to live a life without spot and every believer can possess this eternal Spirit of the Father if they submit to Him and His Son.

That is some pretty erroneous doctrine, brakelite.

The reason that Jesus lived a life without spot is because Jesus was/is God. Jesus was 100% God while on earth as well as being 100% man.

We have the Holy Spirit in us because He takes up residence in us the minute we are born again.