The Holy Trinity?

[brakelite]

By the way, I also believe Jesus existed as God before creation.

Consider the following. If we could travel at a septuagintacentillion (10513) times the speed of light in any one direction, would we ever find the end of the universe, like perhaps a wall with a sign saying this is the end? And if so, what would be on the other side of that wall? And what existed before God created all things through His Son? Was it nothing? And how long did nothing exist for if that was the case? It would have to be forever! And what about God, when did He begin to exist and who created Him? The answer is that there was never a time He did not exist and hence could never have been created. He is God and has always been and so is without beginning! And what about the Son of God who was born of the same substance of God? The same applies.

Since Christ is the same substance of His Father, then everything He consists of had no beginning. So His divinity had no beginning, His makeup; His nature had no beginning as it all came from the Father. So in principle, everything Christ is had no beginning. If you trace Christ back you will have to go through the Father and you will never get to a beginning. But His personality as the Son of God began when He was brought forth by His Father. So in effect it was only the personality of Christ that had a beginning. These are the mysteries of God and things our mind cannot possibly comprehend.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. He was begotten, not created. He is of the substance of the Father, so that in his very nature he is God; and since this is so “it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell.” Col. 1:19 ... While both are of the same nature, the Father is first in point of time. He is also greater in that he had no beginning, WHILE CHRIST'S PERSONALITY HAD A BEGINNING...if Christ had no beginning then He was not begotten.

[brakelite]

4 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Nobody is saying that God can manifest Himself in three ways, but that the three are one, which is what I posted.  The Bible presents to us a Father who is God (John 3:16), a Son who is God (Philippians 2:5-8; John 1:1), and a Holy Spirit who is God (Acts 5:3, 4); yet these are not three Gods, but one and the same God.

This may help.

According to the trinitarian model, where the Son had no beginning, the son can only be metaphorical. The Father did not send a metaphorical Son to die for us.

[OneLight]

4 minutes ago, brakelite said:

According to the trinitarian model, where the Son had no beginning, the son can only be metaphorical. The Father did not send a metaphorical Son to die for us.

You seem to think the Father cannot send His Son to earth as a person then?  You doubt Jesus is God?  Please cut to the chase and speak clearly and precisely.

[JohnD]

3 hours ago, brakelite said:

By the way, I also believe Jesus existed as God before creation.

Consider the following. If we could travel at a septuagintacentillion (10513) times the speed of light in any one direction, would we ever find the end of the universe, like perhaps a wall with a sign saying this is the end? And if so, what would be on the other side of that wall? And what existed before God created all things through His Son? Was it nothing? And how long did nothing exist for if that was the case? It would have to be forever! And what about God, when did He begin to exist and who created Him? The answer is that there was never a time He did not exist and hence could never have been created. He is God and has always been and so is without beginning! And what about the Son of God who was born of the same substance of God? The same applies.

Since Christ is the same substance of His Father, then everything He consists of had no beginning. So His divinity had no beginning, His makeup; His nature had no beginning as it all came from the Father. So in principle, everything Christ is had no beginning. If you trace Christ back you will have to go through the Father and you will never get to a beginning. But His personality as the Son of God began when He was brought forth by His Father. So in effect it was only the personality of Christ that had a beginning. These are the mysteries of God and things our mind cannot possibly comprehend.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. He was begotten, not created. He is of the substance of the Father, so that in his very nature he is God; and since this is so “it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell.” Col. 1:19 ... While both are of the same nature, the Father is first in point of time. He is also greater in that he had no beginning, WHILE CHRIST'S PERSONALITY HAD A BEGINNING...if Christ had no beginning then He was not begotten.

1. This is all speculative gymnastics based on the fact that you cannot accept the fact that the one God is a compound unity of three divine persons who are co-equal co-eternal.

2. God the Word was not created or begotten. God the Word became the Son of God the Father when  the Father created / begat the body of Jesus.

John 1:1–2 (AV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

1 John 1:1–2 (AV)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

God the Word was with God the Father and is just as eternal as the Father.

 

[brakelite]

7 hours ago, OneLight said:

You seem to think the Father cannot send His Son to earth as a person then?  You doubt Jesus is God?  Please cut to the chase and speak clearly and precisely.

Read the last paragraph of my post at the top of the page. Then read again my post above, for it seems you misunderstand what I am saying.

[OneLight]

4 hours ago, brakelite said:

Read the last paragraph of my post at the top of the page. Then read again my post above, for it seems you misunderstand what I am saying.

Yes, I may be misunderstand what you are saying because you do not come right out and say it.  What you post is very clear to you as you are following your train of thought, but people cannot read other peoples minds to know what train of thought they have.  We can only go by what you post.  Perhaps if you reread your post as if you are reading it for the first time, without the preconceived train of thought, you may see how others are reading what you write, which is why I asked for clear precise statements.

So tell me, which of the Trinity do you not believe is God or their own entity?

[Ezra]

5 minutes ago, guestman said:

The facts stand as they are, that Jesus is inferior to the Father and thus not God,...

It does no one any good to pick and choose Scriptures to support false doctrine.  While on earth the Son was subject to the Father.

But if Jesus was indeed *inferior* to the Father, then the Father would not call the Son *God*. And since there is only one true God, it follows that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all equally God.  

While you may not be able to comprehend this, you cannot reject what is plainly stated in Scripture (Hebrews 1:8,9):

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

 

[brakelite]

On 8/02/2017 at 0:03 PM, OneLight said:

  Please cut to the chase and speak clearly and precisely.

 

On 8/02/2017 at 11:54 AM, brakelite said:

By the way, I also believe Jesus existed as God before creation.

 

On 8/02/2017 at 11:54 AM, brakelite said:

Since Christ is the same substance of His Father, then everything He consists of had no beginning. So His divinity had no beginning, His makeup; His nature had no beginning as it all came from the Father. So in principle, everything Christ is had no beginning. If you trace Christ back you will have to go through the Father and you will never get to a beginning. But His personality as the Son of God began when He was brought forth by His Father. So in effect it was only the personality of Christ that had a beginning. These are the mysteries of God and things our mind cannot possibly comprehend.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. He was begotten, not created. He is of the substance of the Father, so that in his very nature he is God; and since this is so “it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell.” Col. 1:19 ... While both are of the same nature, the Father is first in point of time. He is also greater in that he had no beginning, WHILE CHRIST'S PERSONALITY HAD A BEGINNING...if Christ had no beginning then He was not begotten.

...and from another page I said, Literal Father, literal Son, with a Spirit shared by both...the Father and Son being equal in character and nature, but not in authority or age. The Son, being begotten, had a beginning. The Father had no beginning. Because the Son came forth from the Father, the Son inherited all His Father's character and Spirit, 'for it pleased the Father that in Him should all fullness dwell' (Col. 1:9) As the Rock hewn from the mountain, (Daniel 2:34) so that Rock shares the same characteristics as the mountain from which it was cut. Same material, even same age, yet as a personal individual, had a beginning. Such is Jesus. Having the same eternal self-existent life as the Father, (John 5:26) means we may rightly and justifiably name Jesus God. Thus the Father is the God of our God. Less mystery, less perplexity, and still Biblical. Just a different perspective, and the only reason so many claim it heresy is because the creeds say so. The weight of evidence is against the trinity. 

How much clearer can I get? I know you ask for me to be concise, but we are speaking of the nature of God and Christ, thus we are walking on holy ground, so I must speak clearly, so as not to confuse, but not so concise that I leave out essential thoughts.

Where I said above that the weight of evidence is against the trinity, I could be clearer on that. I believe in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. A trinity if you must call it that. I prefer the Biblical term, Godhead, which to my mind are not one and the same thing. But what I do not and cannot accept is the inferences and conclusions made by most people, and the creeds of the early churches, that make the Father and the Son equal in all respects, and the Holy Spirit as a third separate individual entity of equal standing as the other Two. There are two principle reasons apart from the age/begotten thing, that leads me to conclude the submissive and unequal nature of Christ. Two texts, both in agreement, both written after the ascension, (thus not in the context of the earthly life of Jesus) one present tense one future. They are 1 Corinthians 11:3 and 1 Cor 15:24-28.

We have one sole mediator, Christ. The Bible does speak of the intercession of the Holy Spirit, yes, but let us not leap to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is also a mediator separate and apart from Christ...the Holy Spirit is the Spirit OF Christ. When we speak of the Holy Spirit's work among men, we are speaking of Christ. That is true of the OT, the NT, and today. Thus Christ is, and always will be, until He comes, the sole Mediator between God and man. To claim the Holy Spirit is a third entity apart from Christ and independent thereof, creates a mediator that displaces Jesus as the only one.

[brakelite]

12 hours ago, Ezra said:

It does no one any good to pick and choose Scriptures to support false doctrine.  While on earth the Son was subject to the Father.

But if Jesus was indeed *inferior* to the Father, then the Father would not call the Son *God*. And since there is only one true God, it follows that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all equally God.

Trinitarians pick and choose scriptures to support their doctrine, in fact there are only two texts in scripture which  imply a trinity, 1 John 5:7 and Math 28:19, both of which though do not support all the conjecture and assumptions contained in trinitarian theology.

I agree that Jesus cannot be inferior to the Father. He inherited all the same attributes of deity...like Father like Son...however Jesus's submission to His Father as Son is explicit before the incarnation, after the ascension, and throughout all eternity.

"God sent His Son" (John 3:16, and others)denotes authority over His Son before the incarnation.

..."the head of Christ is God" denotes present tense submission of the Son to the Father's authority and headship...

while 1 Cor 15:24-28 denotes submission into the future. So while Jesus can rightly be called 'God' in that He possesses all the attributes of deity, the fact that these were given and sourced from His Father means we cannot give Jesus complete equality as taught in current trinitarian circles, and as taught in the creeds of the early church.

You said there is only one true God, and rightly so. The Bible tells us who that one true God is. John 17:3 and 1 Cor 8:6 tells us clearly that the one true God is the Father, and both texts explicitly leave aside the Son from that exalted position. Hence Jesus calling the Father "His God." (Revelation 3:12).

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, brakelite said:

Trinitarians pick and choose scriptures to support their doctrine...

It is extremely significant that you failed to acknowledge the truth within the actual passage quoted from Hebrews.  In fact, you have not even recognized that it is right in front of you and that it TOTALLY REFUTES your false doctrine.  So there is no need to wander off to all those other quotations. Let's stick with this quotation. 

Do you or do you not believe that the epistle to the Hebrews is Holy Scripture, and do you or do you not accept the fact that God the Father addressed God the Son as "GOD"? In fact, this Scripture is actually a quotation from the Old Testament (Psalm 45:6,7) , so now you have TWO WITNESSES  to that truth.

Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

If you fail to address this, then we will know that you are the one picking and choosing the Scriptures which suit your fancy.  If you fail to believe it, then there is no point in wasting anyone's time with futile arguments.