The Holy Trinity?

[brakelite]

2 hours ago, Ezra said:

It is extremely significant that you failed to acknowledge the truth within the actual passage quoted from Hebrews.  In fact, you have not even recognized that it is right in front of you and that it TOTALLY REFUTES your false doctrine.  So there is no need to wander off to all those other quotations. Let's stick with this quotation. 

Do you or do you not believe that the epistle to the Hebrews is Holy Scripture, and do you or do you not accept the fact that God the Father addressed God the Son as "GOD"? In fact, this Scripture is actually a quotation from the Old Testament (Psalm 45:6,7) , so now you have TWO WITNESSES  to that truth.

Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

If you fail to address this, then we will know that you are the one picking and choosing the Scriptures which suit your fancy.  If you fail to believe it, then there is no point in wasting anyone's time with futile arguments.

Why would I need to address that Hebrews text at all when I have no issue with it? I have already stated many times that Jesus is God...as God's Son how could He not be? I also addressed the concept of Jesus not being entirely equal to His Father...understandable considering the fact as that Hebrews text emphasizes, the Father Himself declares that He is Jesus's God. Confirmed also by several other texts I posted above previously.

[OneLight]

I am not going to continue going back and forth until you answer this one simple question I posted  and you ignored.

So tell me, which of the Trinity do you not believe is God or their own entity?

[JohnD]

Brakelite is trying top make a case for modalism / sabbelianism... from what I gather from his posts equating God as an overall and the three persons as extensions of that overall.

Example:

The Adams Family is Adam, Eve, Cain.

That all came through the prototype Adam and are therefore part of Adam. And somehow the linear progression of their (Eve and Cain) actual beginnings is back dated through the beginning of Adam (or in the case of God, back through the eternity of the Father).

This is patently false as I stated in 1 John 1:2 the Word  of Life (cross ref. God the Word, John 1:1-2, John 1:4, John 1:14)... is that ETERNAL life that was WITH the Father in the beginning.

ETERNAL = always existing past, present, future never at any time was not existing.

Brakelite cannot undefine / redefine who and what Jesus is with any amount of extrabiblical reasoning or scripture twisting.

And IMHO people who come here to spread this degree of unbiblical deception should have their privileges of posting here revoked with extreme prejudice.

This is a biblical message board.

Magnanimous boards litter the internet and as you will find in ever case truth is decimated, scriptures are twisted and ridiculed and mocked, and deceivers bully everyone who does not toe the line with their deception. I pray the overseers of this board and the defenders of truth here will do as the Spirit leads them.

We should not try to isolate ourselves from the world, but once the world tries to put its (camel's) nose under our tent edge, once discovered it must be dealt with accordingly. Otherwise believers will be outside of the tent and the camel will be in here.   

[JohnD]

Doubt my point?

Go to waltermartin.com the message board there. Mostly Mormons post there now. 

 

[JohnD]

Theology, like Trinity, is not a biblical term.

Those who try to debunk either on that basis are deceivers (wittingly or not).

Be blessed.

[OneLight]

38 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Brakelite is trying top make a case for modalism / sabbelianism... from what I gather from his posts equating God as an overall and the three persons as extensions of that overall.

Example:

The Adams Family is Adam, Eve, Cain.

That all came through the prototype Adam and are therefore part of Adam. And somehow the linear progression of their (Eve and Cain) actual beginnings is back dated through the beginning of Adam (or in the case of God, back through the eternity of the Father).

This is patently false as I stated in 1 John 1:2 the Word  of Life (cross ref. God the Word, John 1:1-2, John 1:4, John 1:14)... is that ETERNAL life that was WITH the Father in the beginning.

ETERNAL = always existing past, present, future never at any time was not existing.

Brakelite cannot undefine / redefine who and what Jesus is with any amount of extrabiblical reasoning or scripture twisting.

And IMHO people who come here to spread this degree of unbiblical deception should have their privileges of posting here revoked with extreme prejudice.

This is a biblical message board.

Magnanimous boards litter the internet and as you will find in ever case truth is decimated, scriptures are twisted and ridiculed and mocked, and deceivers bully everyone who does not toe the line with their deception. I pray the overseers of this board and the defenders of truth here will do as the Spirit leads them.

We should not try to isolate ourselves from the world, but once the world tries to put its (camel's) nose under our tent edge, once discovered it must be dealt with accordingly. Otherwise believers will be outside of the tent and the camel will be in here.   

Though I fully agree that those who deny the Trinity do so by not understanding scripture as it points to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God, I would much rather try to assist them in seeing the truth instead of just banning them.  Yet, that choice is not yours nor mine to make, but the Servants.  It does, however, get frustrating when they continue to attack the one providing them the truth.

[JohnD]

11 hours ago, OneLight said:

Though I fully agree that those who deny the Trinity do so by not understanding scripture as it points to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God, I would much rather try to assist them in seeing the truth instead of just banning them.  Yet, that choice is not yours nor mine to make, but the Servants.  It does, however, get frustrating when they continue to attack the one providing them the truth.

I only suggest.

There are those in theological circles as well as in other parts of life who wean themselves into lives feigning to be lambs but who are rather wolves which the scriptures warn about.

Magnanimity, I posted in another thread, is a gateway to hell.

 

 

 

[JohnD]

10 hours ago, eileenhat said:

"Greater" does not signify less than.

"Greater" could mean God the Father is 'more' than Jesus in respect to achievements, stance, power, perfection and authority.

'Jesus' is not less therefore, than God the Father in authority and power in OUR lives.  

We are mortal human beings while he is Jesus, Son of God who resides now in Heaven with His father, God, in the throne room (of perfection*).  

 

*By 'perfection' I am attempting to distinguish that space, from any other 'space' that exist, in our reality (universe).  It is the space where our father, God resides hence it is a special place to be.  It must be extraordinary in it's perfection.

Well said.

Also, God the Father (equal to God the Word and God the Holy Spirit in every way) is the ultimate Authority. Both the Word and the Spirit submit to him. This is how both God the Word and God the Holy Spirit have been the Angel of the Lord in scripture. Angel in Hebrew and Greek simply mean messenger (one who is sent by a greater authority). This alone makes Genesis 22 a fascinating read:

Genesis 22:1–19 (AV)
1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
19 So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.

Verses 1, 12, and 16 show that the Messenger of YHVH was taking the credit and promising to fulfill the blessings of his own abilities (as YHVH as God).

 

 

[JohnD]

For God to be a messenger there had to be at least two in the Godhead.

One submitted to the other.

Also John 14:28 was referring to the Incarnate state of the Son who (before the Earth was had the glory with the Father) see John 17:5.

[JohnD]

35 minutes ago, JohnD said:

I only suggest.

There are those in theological circles as well as in other parts of life who wean themselves into lives feigning to be lambs but who are rather wolves which the scriptures warn about.

Magnanimity, I posted in another thread, is a gateway to hell.

 

 

 

We *could* waste time and energy and lose potential believers over the wolves in sheeps clothing who come to sites like this to muddy the waters and cause doubt and consternation over such foolish points as:

John 1:1–7 (AV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

Their argument:

How could a man be a light?

A man is a corporeal being and light is wave and energy totally alien in nature to one another...

And then they cite volumes of dictionaries, encyclopedias, schools of thought on the subject...

Antagonists come in all shapes and sizes and the sneakiest are the worst because they fool so many into thinking they are not antagonists.

Show 'em scripture. If they believe the scripture... okay. If they need more convincing... okay, but it's getting suspicious. If they are firmly in the unbiblical camp (though it seems otherwise, they refuse to bow to clear scripture in an argument) then it's time to activate the trap door under them and they fall into the alligator pit.

IMHO ← I clarify this for those who might find this a bit harsh...

We are not to commit violence, but we are at war spiritual war every day all the time.

Our complacency is depended upon by the enemy.