The Holy Trinity?

[Limey_Bob]

On 06/01/2017 at 4:00 AM, Paper mache said:

I've grown up believing in the Holy Trinity, as that's what I've always been taught. But, following 1 Thessalonians 5:21's "But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good" (NASB), after reading through some of the Bible and reading some theological essays online, I'm not really sure I can say I believe in the Trinity. There doesn't seem to be much support for the Trinity in what I've read so far. There seems to be more support for Binitarian beliefs than Trinitarian beliefs. Could you guys please provide biblical evidence for a Triune God?

The first and most important thing, isn't to offer proofs for the Trinity, but to accurately and fairly define what the Trinity is according to the ancient creeds and doctrinal statements such as the Westminster Confession of faith, only then is the Trinity to be examined in the light of scripture. Sadly, I've come across very few evangelicals in my part of the UK (Plymouth  Devon) who are genuine Trinitarians, many people who attend so-called "Trinitarian" churches, whom I've spoken to, are actually modalists who've told me that Jesus is God the Father, or else they are tri-theists (God is three separate Gods  or 2 separate persons denying the 4th point of the Athanasian creed), another popular belief within evangelicalism today is Apollinarianism - which is the false claim that Christ only possessed (and still possesses) one single spirit (not two). I left the church in 2010 and the Trinity was a huge factor in my decision to turn my back on what calls itself evangelical Christianity.

[Limey_Bob]

On 06/01/2017 at 8:07 AM, shiloh357 said:

There is tons of evidence for the Trinity.  It is one the most well supported doctrines we have in Scripture.  The word English word, "Trinity" is actually from  a Latin word, so you won't find it in either the Greek or Hebrew text of Scripture, but it is completely derived from Scripture.

The Father is God

First of all, there is only one God (Is. 44:8).  That is not something anyone can dispute, so I don't really need to spend much time on that.  He is the only God.  

The Father is God or, as we say it, "God the Father."  Most of the time when people talk about "God"  that is who they are talking about.  I don't think that is up for debate so I don't need to post a bunch of Scripture to defend what is not in dispute, there.

The Son is God

The Son (Jesus is also called "God."  Hebrews 1:8 has the Father directly referring to His Son Jesus as "God."   Not only that but Jesus, in the book of Revelation, refers to Himself as the "beginning and the end,"   and "The first and last." 

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
(Rev 1:8)

Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
(Rev 1:11-13)

And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
(Rev 1:17)

And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
(Rev 2:8)

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(Rev 22:12-13)

Those verses are Jesus calling Himself by titles only ascribed to God in the Old Testament, namely "The first and the last." Compare those verses with what God says about Himself in Isaiah (Isa_41:4, 44:6, 48:12).  In those places God refers to Himself as the "first and the last."  I could post more proofs that Jesus is God, but that is sufficient to make my point.

The Holy Spirit is God

The Holy Spirit is referred to as God in Acts 5:3-4.  Annanias and his wife Sapphira were accused of lying to God when they lied to the Holy Spirit.

We also see the Holy Spirit, as a Person, present at the Baptism of Jesus along with God the Father.   God the Father speaks, saying that Jesus was His beloved Son in whom He was well pleased, Jesus is coming up out of the water and the Holy Spirit descends on Jesus in bodily form as a dove.  

The Holy Spirit is even more distinguished from Jesus (in opposition to Binitarianism)  because Jesus said that just as God the Father sent Jesus, Jesus is sending the Holy Spirit as another comforter (John 15:26).  The Comforter would come in Jesus' Name (John 14: 26).  So if the Holy Spirit is coming in Jesus' Name, it indicates that He is a separate Person from Jesus.  He is sending someone who is distinct from Himself and Jesus said that if He did not leave the Comforter, the Holy Spirit could not come (John 16:7).

If you'll study out the Holy Spirit, you will see that the Bible ascribes all kinds of divine attributes.  He is called "eternal" (Heb. 9:14)  He knows God's thoughts (I Cor. 2:10-11).  The Holy Spirit is omnipresent (Ps. 139: 7-10).   The Holy Spirit is mentioned as a separate divine Person in II Cor. 13:14 who can be communed with.

Conclusion

So all three are called God in Scripture and yet are three separate Persons.  How is that possible?   How do we make sense of that?   We don't.   We cannot explain it and the Bible doesn't call on us to explain it.   There is no point of reference in our experience that serves as proper analogy for the Trinity.   But just because it doesn't make sense, doesn't mean it isn't true.    It doesn't make sense to us because it is a great example of how God is beyond our understanding, beyond our ability to explain. 

The Trinity  is not explained in Scripture because it can't be explained.  So what we find is that it is demonstrated, acted out for us to see.   Even though none of the biblical writers wrote out a treatise on the Triune nature of God in the New Testament, it doesn't make the Trinity any less of a doctrine.  Binitarianism is really a false teaching that either rejects part of the Bible, or is the result of a rather lack luster understanding of the whole counsel of Scripture.

 

Your definition of the Trinity in the first line of your conclusion as "three separate persons" is actually Tritheism, the creeds all define the persons are distinct and NOT separate (see the 4th point of the Athanasian creed). But you make my point, evangelicalism today is aggressively anti-Trinitarian. Many evangelical Churches will claim to be Trinitarian, and might even have a  fairly decent Trinitarian doctrinal statement of faith up on their web site, but in practice as shiloh357 has demonstrated, when you speak to these people, they cannot define the Trinity accurately and always seem to end up misdefining the Trinity as tri-theism as Shiloh357 has done, or else the other popular misdefinion of the Trinity is as modalism. 

[Limey_Bob]

On 06/01/2017 at 6:41 PM, shiloh357 said:

We have the Holy Spirit separate from God the Father hovering over the face of the deep in Gen. 1:2.  He was present at the creation and too part, evidently in the creation process.   We have the Holy Spirit cooperating with the Father in testifying to Jesus as God's son at Jesus' baptism and anointing Jesus for the ministry ahead of Him.   Those are just two references.   The Holy Spirit was sent by Jesus to birth the church on Pentacost just as Jesus promised.

You may have said that, but that is incorrect.   The Holy Spirit is presented in the Bible as a person.  You can lie to a person, you can grieve a person, it is a person who can comfort or teach you, etc.  That is not personification.  That is personhood.

Holy Spirit can and was poured out at Pentacost.   The Holy Spirit is a person.   He is not a human person, though.   You cannot pour out a human.  But the Holy Spirit is a spirit and He was poured out.  He is God.  There is nothing too hard for God.  Remember that that God does not conform to our carnal ideas and logic.   He transcends them.

Did you not read all of the places out of the book of Revelation where Jesus calls Himself God, which posted in my first response to you?  Go up and read the multiple references mentioned there and the cross references to the passages in Isaiah where God the Father refers to himself by the same terminology.

Also note Heb. 1:8 where God the Father calls Jesus  "God."

Jesus was begotten by God through the virgin Mary.   He is the only Person ever born that way in human history, thus the only begotten of God.  But that does NOT apply to Jesus as God.   As God, Jesus pre-existed His incarnation (John 1:1-3, John 17: 5, Phi. 2: 5-7 Col. 1:).

So as God, Jesus does not have a paternal relationship with God the Father.  "Son of God" is a reference to Jesus deity.  It is never a reference to His humanity.   "Son of God" is used carefully in the book of John to indicate that Jesus is God.  The phrase "Son of"  is also a Hebraism that denotes equality between something and the object it is compared to.   Jesus referred to James and John as sons of thunder.  He referred to the pharisees as "sons of hell"   The phrase was even used of Simon Bar Kochba (Son of a star) in a failed attempt to declare him to be the messiah.

Come near me and listen to this: "From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there. "And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit. This is what the LORD says - your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go (Is. 48:16-17)

 

Shiloh357 again uses the term "separate" see the first line: "We have the Holy Spirit separate from God the Father hovering over the face of the deep in Gen. 1:2." This is completely unbiblical and contrary to all of the ancient creeds and doctrinal statements of faith, which all teach that the Holy Spirit is DISTINCT from the Father (not separate). It was my coming to the realisation in 2010 that the vast majority of evangelical church leaders in my part of the UK, within churches which call themselves Trinitarian, are in reality functionally really just modalists or tritheists who call themselves (inaccurately) Trinitarians, which caused me to leave organised religion, that plus the inability to accurately define and preach the gospel and the widespread fornication and sexual sin by so many church leaders in my part of the UK, all of which is simply covered up by these and other church leaders.  

[Limey_Bob]

On 06/01/2017 at 7:27 PM, Paper mache said:

I never denied that the HS was divine. Just that it's not a person. It's a force.  

 

I am interested in your claim that the Holy Spirit is a force, would you please explain four verses to me. Firstly, at Acts 13:2 the Holy Spirit can speak and say "I" (first person singular). Please explain how a mere force can do this, only persons can say "I." Secondly, the Holy Spirit can be grieved (Isaiah 63:10), but can a force such as electricity be grieved? Thirdly, the Holy Spirit can love (Romans 15:30), but can a force such as electricity love someone other than him or herself? Finally, the Holy Spirit is called "He" seven times at John 16:13-14, why? And why doesn't the text refer to the Holy Spirit as "it?"

[Guest shiloh357]

8 minutes ago, Limey_Bob said:

Shiloh357 again uses the term "separate" see the first line: "We have the Holy Spirit separate from God the Father hovering over the face of the deep in Gen. 1:2." This is completely unbiblical and contrary to all of the ancient creeds and doctrinal statements of faith, which all teach that the Holy Spirit is DISTINCT from the Father (not separate).

Semantics.  Separate and distinct are synonyms.  When I say separate, I mean distinct, as well.  Stop trying to manufacture a problem that doesn't exist.

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Your definition of the Trinity in the first line of your conclusion as "three separate persons" is actually Tritheism, the creeds all define the persons are distinct and NOT separate (see the 4th point of the Athanasian creed).

That is utter rubbish and nonsense.   Tritheism would be a claim that they are three gods.   I hold to the biblical and Christian doctrine of the Trinity which you apparently don't understand.

Quote

But you make my point, evangelicalism today is aggressively anti-Trinitarian. Many evangelical Churches will claim to be Trinitarian, and might even have a  fairly decent Trinitarian doctrinal statement of faith up on their web site, but in practice as shiloh357 has demonstrated, when you speak to these people, they cannot define the Trinity accurately and always seem to end up misdefining the Trinity as tri-theism as Shiloh357 has done, or else the other popular misdefinion of the Trinity is as modalism. 

I have not misdefined anything.  You simply don't understand what you're criticizing and making a lot of wildly inaccurate claims  about what I believe.  

You don't get to define me or what I believe.   If you think I am in error, then you can ask me about it and we can dialogue, but I will not sit here and allow you to make up false accusations about me.