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The Holy Trinity?


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Guest shiloh357
2 minutes ago, Zach said:

 

The reason You don't call Jesus Father is because Jesus is called the Son.

Yeah, that was the point I was making.  Thanks for helping me out with that.  :)

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3 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Early church fathers are conventionally defined as being later than the apostles, early to mid 2nd century and onward to the post nicene period, and I think you know that.  Augustine was 4th century, actually.   But the point is that you didn't think the early church fathers had a trinitarian theology when in fact, they did.

Yes, I do know that, and that is the point. You are reduced to quoting Greek/Roman church fathers for support of anything resembling a proto-trinity doctrine.

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3 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Yeah, that was the point I was making.  Thanks for helping me out with that.  :)

But you've still failed to answer Brittany's question. Running around in circles isn't answering the question. 

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20 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Spirits are invisible.  But he did appear in bodily form as a dove.  And he is active and moving in the lives of believers and He speaks to us through the Word of God.  Speaking audibly is not the definition of a "person."

It is clear in the Bible that Jesus and the Father are both God in nature. God the Father, however, is THE God. Jesus is THE God's Son. This is what Scripture teaches. Nowhere is the Holy Spirit mentioned as a personal part of the trinity. You are right, spirits are invisible. But that's all the HS is - a Spirit. The Spirit of God the Father and of Jesus Christ, God's Son. The Spirit isn't a personal being. God the Father is the One who speaks to us through God's Word (which is Jesus). Jesus is God's Word. That is the role of the Holy Spirit.  It's the same reason we don't pray to the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit's job in Scripture is to point us to Jesus who then points us to the Father.

24 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

The Holy Spirit isn't the Father.   I mean, you could make the same argument about Jesus, couldn't you?  If Jesus is God why don't we call Jesus the Father?   What we see is that each person in the Godhead has a particular role that they play.  Each one is a unique person, but each one is God. 

You make the erronous suggestion that Jesus (the Son) is the same as God The Father, which is incorrect. So we couldn't say the same about Jesus. Jesus is God by nature because He is God's literal Son, but He is not THE God. Bob has a son. Bob's son is human, like Bob, but Bob's son is not Bob. 

For the rest of your post, notice how the Spirit is only mentioned as the "Spirit of God/the LORD." Are there any places that make it clear that the Spirit is separate from God the Father/Jesus Christ?

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Just now, Brittany said:

It is clear in the Bible that Jesus and the Father are both God in nature. God the Father, however, is THE God. Jesus is THE God's Son. This is what Scripture teaches. Nowhere is the Holy Spirit mentioned as a personal part of the trinity. You are right, spirits are invisible. But that's all the HS is - a Spirit. The Spirit of God the Father and of Jesus Christ, God's Son. The Spirit isn't a personal being. God the Father is the One who speaks to us through God's Word (which is Jesus). Jesus is God's Word.

You make the erronous suggestion that Jesus (the Son) is the same as God The Father, which is incorrect. So we couldn't say the same about Jesus. Jesus is God by nature because He is God's literal Son, but He is not THE God. Bob has a son. Bob's son is human, like Bob, but Bob's son is not Bob. 

For the rest of your post, notice how the Spirit is only mentioned as the "Spirit of God/the LORD." Are there any places that make it clear that the Spirit is separate from God the Father/Jesus Christ?

 

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Guest shiloh357
46 minutes ago, Zach said:

Yes, I do know that, and that is the point. You are reduced to quoting Greek/Roman church fathers for support of anything resembling a proto-trinity doctrine.

No I am not reduced to that.  I simply answered your charge that they had no trinitarian doctrine.

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8 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

No I am not reduced to that.  I simply answered your charge that they had no trinitarian doctrine.

That's all you quoted.

I find it telling who you consider "Church Fathers ". Granted there are conventional definitions, but it is the "Apostolic Fathers" (but they wouldn't allow themselves to be called "Fathers" except Paul) who you should pay attention to rather than man made doctrines of a church culturally removed from its foundation by 200-400 years.

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Guest shiloh357
29 minutes ago, Brittany said:

It is clear in the Bible that Jesus and the Father are both God in nature. God the Father, however, is THE God. Jesus is THE God's Son. This is what Scripture teaches.

Yes, God the Father and Jesus are both God. 

Quote

Nowhere is the Holy Spirit mentioned as a personal part of the trinity.

That's not true.  He is mentioned as part of the Godhead and functioning in cooperation with the Father and the Son. 

Quote

You are right, spirits are invisible. But that's all the HS is - a Spirit. The Spirit of God the Father and of Jesus Christ, God's Son. The Spirit isn't a personal being.

That is incorrect.   According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit is a very personal being.  For instance,  He can be lied to, grieved, communed with, He has a mind, and He is a comforter, He prays with us and on our behalf, He indwells us and reminds us that we belong to Jesus, He is a teacher, He convicts us of sin and He is the one who guides us into all truth.   So He is actually quite personal.  You really have to ignore a pretty wide portion of Scripture about the Holy Spirit to say that He is not a personal being.

 

Quote

You make the erronous suggestion that Jesus (the Son) is the same as God The Father, which is incorrect.

No, I didn't   He is as much God as God the Father is and that is attested by Jesus Himself.   He is not the same Person, but he is just as much God as the Father is.

Quote

So we couldn't say the same about Jesus. Jesus is God by nature because He is God's literal Son, but He is not THE God. Bob has a son. Bob's son is human, like Bob, but Bob's son is not Bob. 

The term "Son of God is not a paternal reference.   God the Father is not Jesus' paternal father and Jesus is not Gods' paternal Son.  So your "Bob" analogy is wrong.    God the Father and Jesus are equally God.  Paul points that out in Philippians 2:6-7.   Speaking of Jesus' incarnation, Paul said that even though Jesus was equal with God, He didn't view His equality with God as something to exploit to His own advantage.

Quote

For the rest of your post, notice how the Spirit is only mentioned as the "Spirit of God/the LORD." Are there any places that make it clear that the Spirit is separate from God the Father/Jesus Christ?

Notice in that passage from Isaiah where God the Father, Jesus and the Spirit of God are mentioned together in the same verse but as separate entities.

 Spirit of God = Holy Spirit.

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Guest shiloh357
Just now, Zach said:

That's all you quoted.

I find it telling who you consider "Church Fathers ". Granted there are conventional definitions, but it is the "Apostolic Fathers" (but they wouldn't allow themselves to be called "Fathers" except Paul) who you should pay attention to rather than man made doctrines of a church culturally removed from its foundation by 200-400 years.

Well Zach. You're trying to refute something I am not arguing about.   I don't base my theology on the Church Fathers. The only reason I quoted them was to set the record straight about their views on the Trinity.   My theology is derived from Scripture and that includes the Trinity.

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1 minute ago, shiloh357 said:

Well Zach. You're trying to refute something I am not arguing about.   I don't base my theology on the Church Fathers. The only reason I quoted them was to set the record straight about their views on the Trinity.   My theology is derived from Scripture and that includes the Trinity.

It's extremely doubtful to think you could come up with the trinity doctrine all by yourself by just reading Scripture when it took the "church fathers" almost 200 years!

You're fooling yourself, your interpretation of Scripture has been long ago pre-digested for you and regurgitated as a mother bird to its young.

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